#112 Brook Chivell

In this episode, we chat with Country singer songwriter Brook Chivell and hear about his obsessive musical upbringing in Melbourne and desire to be jet setting all over the world. he wrote his first song at age 6 and started playing guitar at 17 just as he was supposed to be studying for his end of school exams. Heading down the rock path and playing in cover bands all over Melbourne he had to get fired from his band to make him realise it was time to start recording and releasing his own music as an independent artist.

Brook has made a name for himself as producing modern country that sits just as well in the Australian Country scene as it would in the American market. Versatility is the key for this talented musician, with just as much passion belting out a party country rock anthem as well as a soulful country ballad. Brook is a songwriter at heart and loves the search for melody, the hook, and the soul of the song. "It's all about the connection," he says was the best advice given to him when performing with his mate Brandy - AKA Adam Brand.

After reaching the finals of the 2017 Toyota StarMaker Competition at Tamworth Country Music Festival, Brook has gone on to perform at iconic festivals such as Deni Ute Muster, Gympie Music Muster, Sydney Country Music Festival, Broadbeach/Groundwater Country Music Festival as well as Tamworth Country Music Festival. Brook is also considered one of Australia’s finest touring artists.

Connect with Brook:

• Facebook

• Instagram

• Twitter

• Spotify

• Website

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Transcript

Rae Leigh: We're going to have somewhere to tryst with Brooke Hi, how are you doing? you're in my bedroom, in my studio, I haven't done a live one in a little while just cause I've been chatting, to a lot of people overseas, which is cool, but I much prefer the in Intimate trysts yes.  so we're going to get to know you a little bit. Tell me a bit about you, who you are and where you come from and how you got into, songwriting. 

Brook Chivell: from Melbourne originally.

Yeah. So I was born and raised in Tullamarine right near the airport. So I always had had that. Let's get out of here kind of vibe pretty much my whole life. I was always wanting to travel the planes 

Rae Leigh: Really? You just in the backyard. Staring. up at the planes, flying over you. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. More having the engines.

Wake me up at six o'clock in the morning. Yeah, we're pretty close. 

Rae Leigh: him. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. Yeah. That didn't bother me at all. 

Rae Leigh: I would have thought You'd have the opposite reaction. after 

Brook Chivell: No, because I never did the, like, you'd say you'd go up to the airport and you'd see all the cars parked around and watching the planes. I never did that.

Rae Leigh: I just want it Yeah. Cool. All right. So tell him Marine. 

Brook Chivell: Yup. And then so I started, I actually wrote my first song when I was six, but I didn't know what it was. was just kind of, I liked to music and I just to muck around my first song was called take me back to my home in America.

Rae Leigh: Oh yeah. Yeah, Had you ever been to America? 

Brook Chivell: no, not from there never been there. I mean, I have been there now, but, it was just kind of, like the kiss and that seemed to be the kind of thing that would kiss would sing 

Rae Leigh: Yeah Okay. So you were like imitating you here. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah, pretty much. And it was just, as it turns out it's kind of a blues song, 

Rae Leigh: but I 

Brook Chivell: I didn't know that at the time, obviously.

Yeah. And then right. A cup, all right. Some other songs, like, just melodies and lyrics. Cause I didn't know how to play anything at the time. I've probably the next four or five probably until I was in my early teens. And then I just, I was a flat-out golf head. I played golfer seven years , and then in study Wikipedia 12, a friend of mine said, oh, we'll go and visit one of his mates.

I'm like, okay, cool. And when I ran to his house and he had two guitars and he showed me how to play wild thing and study wakey, V12 is not the ideal time to start playing guitar, become obsessed with the guitar, which is what happened. I just became completely obsessed. 

Rae Leigh: at the same time as you're supposed to be doing exams. 

Brook Chivell: Yep. Yep. I didn't do so.

Well, I passed, but not for want of trying to find I, 

Rae Leigh: I would write like 10 songs. If it was exam time, like if I was under pressure or stress, I would write songs. It's what, relaxed me. And I didn't recognize it until the university. I was like, hang on a second. This is what relaxes me. This is why I do it right at the time I shouldn't be doing it like this is my procrastination.

technique.  And then it wasn't until years later I had the courage to be like, yeah, maybe I should actually do the thing that I like to do in my spare time. Like, why is that? Not my career. path. 

Brook Chivell: I think for me, the, I always find stuff comes out of me. The easiest at three o'clock in the morning when I'm right on the edge of gum.

So tired, I'm delirious and. Being awake that for me, that's the time nobody wants to do a ride at three o'clock in the morning. So I just do it with myself. Sorry. 

Rae Leigh: I will wake up at three o'clock in the morning with ideas. but like, I've married. So I can't like get the guitar I've got three kids in the house too, so I can't be like, all right, I'm going to write this song, but I'll just, I'll grab my phone and put it into notes and like put down the idea and then I can't make sense of it the next day usually. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. It's always a melodies. Like I'll wake up with melodies and I'll remember that in the morning. You don't ever remember that in the morning, 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I have learned countless times to make sure that I put it down If there's a melody, I'll do a voicemail, I'll go have a cup of tea or something. But I find when that happens, I'm not groggy.

Like when I wake up, I'm like wide awake and I cannot go to sleep until it's out. now, I think, Cause I know that I'll forget. and I don't want to forget. 

Brook Chivell: no, I just, I mean, I live in a constant state of fatigue so I can go to sleep at any minute. And it, like, I could if I close my eyes, I could probably go to sleep. Now I'm really good at going to sleep.

I dunno, cause I work and 

Rae Leigh: cause you didn't have kids, right. So I'm like, let me understand this what's going on. 

Brook Chivell: kids but I'm good. I can fall asleep easily, but actually getting into bed is difficult for me. Like actually, going all right. Just tell me to go to bed. Cause I can, be sitting on the couch newly on guitar at nine 30 and then look at my watch again.

And it's two o'clock in the morning and I've gotta be up at five and that happens a lot. Sorry. 

Rae Leigh: I actually think I had that and it's like anxiety about going to bed, but for me That was when I was dealing with a lot of stuff. And when I, as soon as I go to bed and you try to turn your brain off to go to sleep for me, that was when some really difficult things would come up.

So then I knew that, like my body knew that would happen. And so then I'd avoid that and then I'd not go to sleep until I was literally passing out before I even hit the shakes. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah, I don't have that problem. It's very rare that I have one of those nights. I do have them, everybody does, I guess, but very rare.

I just get into vignette, not this is not happening at all. 

Rae Leigh: Okay. So in telling Marine, you learned to guitar learn guitar, he's obsessed with guitar at 17? supposed to be doing exams you passed, what did you do after high school? 

Brook Chivell: I went to uni, 

Rae Leigh: What did you do at 

Brook Chivell: I'm going to canning degree.

So the good thing about the accounting degree was it was 16 contact hours. And it meant that I could play guitar 10 hours a day. So I did 

literally 

Rae Leigh: So you learned about numbers and accounting and 

Brook Chivell: didn't learn anything blitz. Let's be real. I passed the course. No, I literally, I passed the course and not that I'm a super intelligent person because, and he can agree.

He's not the most difficult thing in the world, but I just passed it because I'm not dumb really. Cause I put no work into it. If I had to put the amount of work into my degree that I put into playing guitar, I probably would've passed it with, high distinction, but I just didn't care. It just yet that it did.

That's exactly what 

happened Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: no. Nice. 

Brook Chivell: So 

Rae Leigh: I remember I got to third year of my degree and it's a really hard degree. and I had to work my butt off just to pass but by the time I got to third year, I knew it. Wasn't what I wanted to do I just didn't want to be a dropout. So I finished it, but like I was off doing personal training and modeling, and acting and like, this is probably not what I'm going to do. I don't know if I want to be a doctor anymore I'll just finish it so that my options are still open. And then, 

Brook Chivell: and that's exactly what I did on Europe. I knew a semester in, that's not what I was going to do, but I finished things.

That's what I do. I finish things and probably that's why I'm still doing music now is because I just refuse to stop. I'm just, I mean, obviously I love it, but that's a part of it is definitely. I just refuse to stop. 

Rae Leigh: You can't fail if you never quit. That's kind of my theory, like that's it, if you're afraid of failing, just never quit.

And then you weren't 

Brook Chivell: Well, I mean, if I look back to myself at 17 who couldn't play a chord too, the things that I've done now. I mean that 17 year old kid would be really happy with the things that I've done now. I'm like, oh, I just need to get this done and do that. And hopefully I can get under that and blah, blah, blah.

But you know, that 17 year old kid be really happy with the things that I've done. So it's pretty. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I, Yeah. My, well, I think if I had of known where I am now, when I was a kid, I would I would be petrified. Like literally I've had to do some really hard things. And I, if I had have known I was going to have to do it, I may have offered myself.

So like sometimes I think not knowing what your future holds is the best thing for you, but cause I can sit a lot at the end of the tunnel, now, but yeah it's one of those things you just that's life, You're not supposed to know? what's going to happen. 

Brook Chivell: I mean, it's so many twists and turns. 

Rae Leigh: And you're a multi-instrumentalist 

Brook Chivell: Yeah, I'll play. I mean, I'm a guitar player, but I can hack around on a few different things.

Like I can play bass and mandolin and banjo, but I wouldn't consider myself in a room full of, mandolin players. You couldn't get me to play one, but I played mandolin on all my albums because it's just writing apart and playing the part, which is easy. But when you actually have to play that, it's a completely different 

Rae Leigh: okay it's not easy. I'm just going to say that right now, 

Brook Chivell: that, even though it's a stringed instrument, everything's upside down. And also I've got big fat fingers and mandolin tiny little, 

Rae Leigh: I play piano, guitar and drums. but I will not play any of those instruments on a recording. Like I'm not good enough as a session musician. I know enough to write music and even like, like that fear of playing in front of other people who know what they're doing.

I have that with everyone because everyone can play guitar better than me. If They play guitar, they can probably play guitar. But do they mean I am learning I'm getting better. But I had to get over that fear when I was doing open mikes and stuff, because I would go and I could tell who the guitar players were because they'd look at me with this, weird, like what the, F is she doing? like she's doing it all wrong.

in her hand. like, I knew that my techniques probably wrong, some were very self-taught, but you kind of have to get over it because you are where you are at any given point and that's, as long as you've given it a go. That's awesome. That's my theory. Anyway, that's what I tell myself to get over that fear of getting up and playing in front of people but can't do it. 

Brook Chivell: I mean, for me, it was kind of the other way around because I played guitar in bands for years and years just, I mean, I sang BVS and that kind of stuff.

And I might do a song here or there, but to go from there to being the front man is, that's. That's a big step to be. It's a big walk from three meters, it's a big three meter wall. 

Rae Leigh: Okay. So tell me how long, like, what was that journey? So you first song it's six, then guitar at 17, then how did you progress into these bands? 

Brook Chivell: So I started, I mean, I play my first actual gig when I was 21. And it was a friend's 21st birthday on her 18th birthday party or, sorry, I can't remember something like that anyway. And I was the senior in that band and then I played, I'll put together bands here and there and did, I mean, it was probably three years before I played in another proper band, 

Rae Leigh: what'd you do? in 

Brook Chivell: Just, no, none. I was still working, but I was just, I was also just working on my craft. I was just becoming a guitar player really. So. Yeah. Then three years later I started, kind of doing a couple little cover bands here and there. And then I joined at, later on, I joined probably, one of the big three or four cover bands in Melbourne and went from no nights a week or one night, a week here and there to six six gigs away every week for months and months.

And much as I had issues with the guys towards the end, I learned a lot from that gig. Being a professional musician is not what I thought it was. And in a good way, I learned how to be professional. I learned, learning songs is a thing. Like it wasn't, I thought I knew how to play songs.

And then I got into that band and they're like, okay, well that's a version of the song, but now you need to actually go and learn that song. So I 

did Yeah 

Rae Leigh: if you're going to be covered, especially. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. 

And I did that.  I learned stage craft as well, being in front of a stage, being in front of a crowd is obviously another whole level of stuff.

Cause you know, what you think is cool and what works with the crowd is can be two completely different things. So I learned how to kind of work at crowd as well, which is, and I'll learn from, some of the best singers in Melbourne at the time, how to do that. So, which is pretty cool. And that, because I'd been in that band and it had such a reputation, I moved through, a few other cover bands and stuff.

And then eventually I was so bored with it. And the band that I was in at the time was a band full of champions, but not a champion band. So, 

Rae Leigh: Okay. 

Brook Chivell: Individually, amazing players, but as a band. Everyone was bored. Everyone was mucking around. No one cared really about, and I'd come from this band that only cared about let's do these songs.

Right. And put on a good rock show. And this band was like, just so loose. And I was bored and I'd be on stage yawning and 

Rae Leigh: Look, 

Brook Chivell: but I didn't care. I was still gigging four nights a week and it was just the money thing. And eventually it just got to the point where everyone was like, well, I got kicked out.

Basically what happened? I got booted out. And that's when I decided to do my own thing. So I kind of, yeah. Oh, it's the best thing that ever happened to me. I'm still friendly with all the guys in the band. It took a while, but the couple of those gods I consider be really close friends and we often, we'll talk about that.

That time. And they'll always say, oh man, I'm really sorry. And blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, it was literally the best thing that could have happened to me because always I went from, and also at the time I was in a difficult relationship with someone who didn't want me to be doing, four nights a week kind of thing in a bang.

She wanted a normal life. 

She thought she wanted a normal life, which 

Rae Leigh: we all think we want that at some point in our life 

Brook Chivell: It didn't turn out to be the issue at all. But at the time it was. And 

Rae Leigh: no such thing as normal. 

Brook Chivell: yeah, she just wanted to be able to go out with friends, as a couple and all that kind of stuff. And, that's that kind of normal.

And so I did that for a while and that, that wasn't a problem. But so yeah, I just, that's when I started kind of putting together the original band and because I had been in so many. Really good cover bands that had good reputations. That meant I could draw from, basically the best players that I could find in Melbourne.

So that's kind of what I did. 

Rae Leigh: So you started your Original covers band or your 

original band. 

in Melbourne. Yeah. And That's when you released your rock album? 

Brook Chivell: nice site, that was prior. That was while I was doing the cover thing. So yeah, that was with some other guys from the cover scene as well. But it never actually got released and never got finished.

Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: those, Yeah. We did a full rockish. band album in Melbourne and then Three gigs in how to fight over money and what to wear. And they really want it to be like grunge rock and I'm like, if you know, me, that's not me. And So I was like, all right, well, let's just not do anything And we hadn't registered any of the was upper. And Like it just went down the drain. But it was actually a really, good album. I took it for granted because I didn't know how hard it was to get that.

But what happened to you was Why did it 

Brook Chivell: get really 

drugs and money? Yeah no. I mean, I've been in Calibans where I was the only person with a license. Yeah. Cause I'm the, I'm pretty straight licensed. SIS, not my thing, 

Rae Leigh: I'm a nerd. I was a school captain and a health professional. 

Brook Chivell: I get, so I get high on being at the gig, that's my adrenaline thing.

And when I was off stage, I never felt like I needed to chase that. Whereas a lot of the other guys kind of, it's, people don't understand that how difficult it is to have the adulation of being on a stage and having, even if it's a standard cover pub gig, there might be four or 500 people there looking at you and 

thinking, oh wow, this guy's really good.

And then you get off stage and go home and you're just. You by yourself, if you're single, be just at home by self being a normal dude, just 

Rae Leigh: it's a bit of a high afterwards. And then 

Brook Chivell: yeah. But getting used to that, it's just such a different thing, like yeah. Yeah. And that's, that can be difficult for some people.

I just, I got my hands at the gym, so I'd go and train and get my serotonin in there.

Rae Leigh: Oh, I'm such a gym junkie. I was for so many years. Yeah. I get it. though. like, I think that's a healthy thing to have. though, at least, even if it's 

Brook Chivell: Whereas those guys, they just didn't really do that, but yeah, it was just a nice, some stuff got stolen and yeah, there was 

just stuff stuff happened. 

Rae Leigh: yeah. Fair enough. Okay. so 

Brook Chivell: that all fell apart 

Rae Leigh: was still a learning experience and we've all had those moments that in the moment.

It just feels crappy. But then you look back and it's like, okay, maybe I just needed to learn. To watch out for people like that. And we learn to recognize people by our, experiences with people, unfortunately. 

Brook Chivell: well, the other thing was in that band, I actually met a, I mean, we're already friends and we'd played in bands together, but I wrote, I found my kind of Bernie, 

Rae Leigh: Okay, sorry, I'm writing 

Brook Chivell: yeah.

Yeah. So, Anthony, Emory's his name? He's written probably 60% of, on, on probably 60% of the songs that I've released. Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: together 

Brook Chivell: A lot. Yeah. So he's kind of the lyrics guy. He doesn't really do melodies. He doesn't do, he just blurt, he just writes a page and gives it to me and says, oh, this is what I got.

then I go through and kind of make that into a thing. So 

Rae Leigh: Well in my life do that where they like, just give me some lyrics and they're like, sing it. And I just, I Kind of liked that it takes the pressure of the lyrics. Like that's for me, that's the hard part. Like I love it, but sometimes it's like, ah, don't know.

I know the feeling, but I don't know the word that's meant to go with the feeling. And yeah, 

Brook Chivell: That's the three o'clock in the morning for me. That's when I get in touch with that, he's three o'clock in the morning. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It is. I think it is something that you can work on. Clearly. I've been 

learning 

Brook Chivell: a muscle, like everything.

I mean, you get right in Nashville. Those guys are just like, yeah, I've got it. Because they're doing it all the time. 

Rae Leigh: I've written with some people in Nashville and I almost like you see them do it like that. And I always just sit back and just watch. I don't do lots of inputs. I can see them like ticking away and they've just got it nailed.

And I'm like, sweet. Like, they'd seem to know what they're doing. I'm just going to let them do their thing. They're the pros. They're the ones living in Nashville. They obviously know more than,

I do, but yeah,

Brook Chivell: I mean, I guess I've only ever recorded one song that I didn't write. Personally. So, that was written by the Wolfe brothers and Kylie bell. So that was, I did a duet with that Pearson Coda wondered what your case like. Yeah. But aside from that, I, oh, actually I did a cover of flame trees on my first album, because it's like my favorite song of all time.

But yeah, I dunno. I just, I guess if I always think, if I'm going to release this thing, then it, Eddie, that has to really be something that I'm attached to, for some reason, like flame trees or I have to written it 

just also, from a monetary point of view, like I'm going to go out and release somebody else's song and really not make any money out of it.

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I think a lot of people are starting to get that even in America, a lot of the artists to realize they need to really start writing the songs or at least be, in the writing room. 

Brook Chivell: oh, I was going to say, I think a lot of artists are in the writing room on their phone whilst the songs written. 

Rae Leigh: I got that impression from some people in Nashville. They don't, If you're an artist, if you rock up to a co-write, they don't actually expect you to write anything. They just expect you to be there and get a cut. And that, and then the deal is that they actually then get the cut as well. 

Brook Chivell: Well, I mean, realistic, realistically, if you're a songwriter, you have to be prepared to give a percentage of weight. If an artist's going to record your song, it's just the way it works.

Whether or not people know that, but that's the way it 

Rae Leigh: works. It's yeah. I mean, it's better to have a percentage of something than the a hundred percent of nothing. If you're going to be a songwriter, you need someone to, coach, you have to collaborate. You have to work together. I think that's something the Nashville taught me.

So tell me about why music for you specifically. And what is it that you want your music to say? to your audience? 

Brook Chivell: Why music for me? I've I don't know. I've just always, it's always been a thing my whole life there's always been. There's certain songs that take me back to certain times in my life, and I've always been really attached, there's people that I know there's footy guys out there that, they know a few songs.

They've probably seen case and along with the boys and that, but 

Rae Leigh: as much as a bit, 

Brook Chivell: It doesn't, it like that it's there's songs that are so deeply attached inside me that, I wouldn't be me without those songs. That's how I feel. And I think I just want it to be out to, for me, like when somebody comes up and says all that song, that you wrote or that song you played then, but I mean, sometimes people will be sitting in there in the crowd crying and I'm like, oh, I'm not that bad, but you know, it's a ballot or whatever.

And, 

Rae Leigh: I sing. 

Brook Chivell: But that's partly partially why I do it, but. Oh, I think it's also just to get, because I don't know. I think a lot of songwriters you'll find that they can't say it like on-site and that's their way of getting it out is if you wanna know what a songwriter is thinking, like, if you want to know what a singer songwriter is thinking, like just listen to their songs, that's just the way it goes, because you can say some really difficult things that you might not be able to say in, in your personal life to whoever it is that you need to say it to, but you can write it in a song and get it out on stage rather than having to have that difficult conversation.

Rae Leigh: I think that's the same with all art and forms of expression. And Like when I was a kid and I would write some horrific songs, like, and I'm not saying they were bad songs, but they were traumatic very emotionally dark songs. I, for some reason felt like I had that safety of being like, oh, it's just a song.

Like I'm just being 

Brook Chivell: Yeah 

Rae Leigh: And that no one would look into it. And as I've gotten older, I'm like, oh my gosh, like, it's so obvious. 

Brook Chivell: But sometimes I find that sometimes I'm writing something, I don't even know what it is. And then I'll finish it in three years down the track. I'm like, oh, that's what it was.

I didn't even realize like I've written songs that I thought were completely about different situations. I mean, I've just written songs that it was like, oh, this is a make-up, this is just a pretend song. It's not really even about anything. And then I'll mean I hear it back or, read through the lyrics a couple of years down the track and go, oh, well, I'll be, flails gone through that at the time.

So there it is. 

Rae Leigh: Beautiful I think that's amazing. And I think it's a beautiful thing to be able to share your gift, like that it connects so much to you, it's who you are, but it takes another type of person, like a caring person that wants to share that with other people, because you can have it for yourself. Like I had it for myself for 30 years, but to actually give that to other people. who don't have that inside them. who you are. That's your, diamond, that's your soul. And it's like, so generous, I think, for any song writer to actually then share that with them. the world. However it is that you share it, I think it's Oh, it's scary as hell. 

Brook Chivell: I mean, I often find it gigs that I just don't play the ballads. I mean, it's partially because I want the vibe to be pretty up. Cause that's kind of what I do, I'm the country rock guy that does the fun stuff. But at the same time, it's, that those songs can be more difficult to do just because that all of the ballers that are written up are all, really personal to me.

So sometimes they're just, they take me to a place that I don't necessarily want to go to, especially on stage in front of people. It's I don't know. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I don't know. I'm in two minds. Like I love both and I write a lot of ballads, but I'm also starting to write more Fun songs. but I think you just kind of got to have a mix and we all have like all the different emotions.

Like everyone feels happiness and joy and fear and sadness and anger. And so I think having all of those range of emotions in a song is nice, but yeah, if you're at a pub gig, like maybe not everyone wants to hear that stuff, but if people at the pub, usually they're pretty depressed. In my opinion, I probably should cut that out.

But like, why are you drinking? There's probably a reason for trying to avoid something. But yeah, I dunno. It's funny. These things, music is beautiful and it takes us to places that I think it, it pushes past the walls that we have as human beings and just it rips open. people's souls. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I mean, and I guess that goes back to what I was saying before.

It really is, your way of getting the things out, that you may not necessarily be able to get out in an, any other way without a lot of things. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah. What's your fear around like, Because he said that the more. vulnerable Songs are scary. And that is something that I think everyone feels like those vulnerable songs that, connect deeper to your soul Seeing those in public is the hardest thing.

Especially if it's the truth that you haven't faced yet, I've totally been there. What does it for you then? Like how do you get past that? 

Brook Chivell: I mean, I guess it's just repetition. The more you do it, then the easier it gets. Yeah. I don't know. It's I guess a lot of it's just, like I said, a lot of it's to do with keeping the Bible up as well, but the amount of times I finish a gig and people come up and say, oh, he didn't play whatever it is, they're their favorite ballad.

But yeah, I dunno. It's I mean, not that I'm necessarily against it. It's just weird. Sometimes they, the songs I'm going to cut that always put them in the set, but if I'm going to cut something here, it will be the ballad. I'll just stand around the band and say, nah, let's not do that one.

Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: I think you have to just go with your vibe. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's the perfect. Thing to do. If the crowd's really vibing, then sometimes the best thing he can do is play ballad because it, take them to a place because they're so, they're so into it and their energy so high that the best thing you can do is just drop them back down.

Rae Leigh: I love that You're speaking some wisdom, is Good. All right. What about co-writing have you done, I mean, you spoke about Anthony. What about like, how did that evolve and do you do a lot with other people or if you just you got into groove now. 

Brook Chivell: All right. With anyone that wants to write pretty much sometimes nothing comes out of it.

Sometimes I'd just sit in a room with somebody and shoot the shoot, the breeze, and nothing will happen. And other times it's just, it's straight down to it actually there, right. Did two rights last week. And it was, I mean, it wasn't easy, but it was it, we came out with the song. So, 

Rae Leigh: do you have any tips 

Brook Chivell: Fair 

co-writing 

Rae Leigh: Or like, what do you do personally, to prepare for a Cobra or in a co-write To like get through 

Brook Chivell: nothing. Usually I usually you're going with nothing, which is not the thing to do. You should, if you can have like, just, even if it's a list of titles, that's, I find that's a 

Rae Leigh: Do you have that in your phone though? 

Brook Chivell: No. It's all guitar 

Rae Leigh: type of songwriter. How are 

Brook Chivell: and I know not a good one. For me it all kinda, I mean, generally I would say 90% of, yeah, probably 90% of songs that I've written have come from a guitar, riff a sequence of chords, something like that.

It's usually that and the melody that come first for me, and then I'll write lyrics that fit into that. 

And it always kind of has been then, like, for example, Becky, that we didn't Tazzy a few weeks ago, I wrote a song on the way back on the plane with no guitar in hand, just, oh, this is coming out. And there was a song on my first album called he's there, which is in inverted commerce, the God song.

And 

I'll write it on the toilet in 15 minutes. 

Rae Leigh: No he's on toilet paper. 

Brook Chivell: I almost but it just came out and that literally, 

Rae Leigh: I was on the toilet. 

Brook Chivell: yep. Hey it's the truth. I'm just it wasn't shit. 

Rae Leigh: It's a good song. 

Brook Chivell: Well, I think it is, but it's just, it's one of those songs that every, during the course of recording, we put zero time into it and I'll put zero time into it, like writing wise, it just.

It was done in 15 minutes, I went home and worked out what the chords were. We ran it in pre-production one time. Then the drums are one, take the bass or one take the guitars came together really quickly as well. And the vocal was like, oh, we've got an extra 15 minutes in this session. Let's put the vocal down.

Rae Leigh: Yeah. Wow. 

Brook Chivell: And I mean, I really love it. It's just, I don't know. And then, so I had, because Australia, the Australian country music scene is kind of well because Australia is kind of not super churchy. So I had a lot of people coming up to me saying good and bad. God, I don't know. I feel about that because it never says God, because that's what I wouldn't do that.

But I had other people saying, oh, 

you're 

Rae Leigh: I'd say Australia is very churchy, but 

Brook Chivell: yeah. And I mean, in the country scene, I would say it's just, there's a lot of people that aren't into that. So, like Alan Jackson released the gospel of Alan Jackson is huge here and he released in Australia. He released the gospel open and a lot of Australians.

Yeah. Like it a lot. 

Rae Leigh: There you go. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. But it was just one of those songs that I felt like it just came out so quickly. I was like, oh, this has got to go on the album. So did, 

Rae Leigh: and did you get flack for it being? a good song? 

Brook Chivell: No. I think because it's written in such a backhanded way. People don't really get it for a while.

So it's not something that you have a quick listen to and go, oh, it's a good song. It's like, there's a rascal Flatts song code. He ain't the living Conde and it took me three months to go, ah, it's God, I'm like, this is a really weed storyline, this whole song, just weird. And then just one day I clicked the rent odd tobacco.

That's 

Rae Leigh: But words are really powerful, especially words like, God, like, hallelujah, I don't know about you, but you know, you sing that, especially if you're busking, that's a song to sing his hallelujah and I've had so many people come up to me like, oh, you're a Christian. I'm going to give you money because it's a Christian song.

Hallelujah. And I'm like, it's so not a Christian, at all, but like the word God or hallelu, like words can be it's a perfect example of how powerful a word can be And as songwriters like, that is our responsibility to use them in creative ways like that. is our color. That's our paint. That's what we use to Describe how we're feeling and what's going on and tell a story. And I think if you can use it in the right way, like faith or any of those things, use it in a way that yeah. Can maybe make people question, that I think it's really cool. dare to be tactful. 

Brook Chivell: Also the fact that, obviously people take different things from, it's like even some of my songs, people come up and say, oh, is that about such and such?

And you're like, not even a little bit, but what, however you relate to it. It's like, I mean, as a Calibans guy, the amount of times a girl would come up and say, oh, can you sing Pell better, man? For me and my girlfriend, me and my boyfriend. I'm like, have you listened to the lyrics to that song even a little bit?

So that, that like people just, they'll have a cursory listen and they'll be like, oh, it's about such and such because it says that in the title. But 

Rae Leigh: yeah, I totally get it. And I think it's, I think everyone has to learn that lesson. When you become a recording artist and you release music, it can take awhile to realize that other people are going to make up their own minds as to how they connect to it.

And then they're going to project their own life into your music, the same way people project their life onto other people. And you have to I've learned to let go. And that if anyone projects anything onto my song, that's beautiful, whatever it is. And I've had like so many people connect to some of my songs around the death of their child.

So like funerals and grieving, like I've never lost a child. I haven't even really dealt with that much death. I've had a few friends commit suicide and things like that. But it's not been a huge part of my life. I know some people that it's like they seem to have just been around death, their entire life. And yet for some reason, some of my songs are really connect to some people.

And it's like, I'm just honored and humbled that's even a thing. And amazing. Like, I don't know what my song what your songs are going to do. Like we don't know going to let it go. 

Brook Chivell: No, that's exactly right. You just, once it's, I mean, it's difficult when you take it from the process of I'm writing about this too, then you go into the recording studio and it becomes a thing, an entity, and then letting it go out into the world and be its own thing.

Rae Leigh: letting people know what the song's about.

Cause I've kind of come to this thing of like, maybe I don't need, to just don't even tell people what it's about because they're going to put their own spin on it. anyway. Right? 

Sometimes 

Brook Chivell: it's so literal that, I've got a song called til it's gone. That is literally about working crappy jobs.

Cause I do. And wishing that the weekend can last forever. It's a party song, but it's, That song actually means a lot to me because it is about it's 100% about me, work in crap jobs and doing what you gotta do just to make ends meet so that you can have a weekend. I mean, in the song, it's about partying with your friends, but to me, that's about playing gigs.

Rae Leigh: Yeah. And getting through. Yeah. That's Awesome. So can you tell me what the best advice is that you've

ever been since you've been doing? it for 15 

Brook Chivell: No one ever gave me any advice now. 

I 

Rae Leigh: screw everyone who's helped him. 

Brook Chivell: No I think I mean, a lot of it has been me muddling through and just discovering what I was 

Rae Leigh: the hardest thing though, right? 

Brook Chivell: It is because, sometimes it's difficult because sometimes what you are is just not. As long, right?

I like, I think a lot of people at some point in time, just go, oh, this is, I'm not very good at this. I hope that some people do it because there's people out there that, at some point need to read. And at the moment we're in a time where there's no gatekeeper anymore, anyone can relate to the song, literally.

So your six year old kid could write a song on ukulele and you can record it and put it onto iTunes tomorrow. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. 

Spotify is not selective, They're not like, no, that's a terrible song We're not putting it on our system. They're like, whatever, someone will listen to it or we'll get money. And yeah,

Brook Chivell: And this could be me.

I don't know. It could be 

Rae Leigh: you're not getting the validation through a publisher and a record label 

Brook Chivell: and 

Rae Leigh: like that sort of relegation, that is like we're going to put money behind you. And that's something a lot of people don't. have. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. And I mean, I guess, yeah, it's just a gatekeeper thing. So at some point in time, you either.

Keep pushing because you love it or you do get the people behind you in the industry, or you could be somewhere in between there the whole time. 

Rae Leigh: So you're just stubborn. Aren't you? 

Brook Chivell: I'm really sorry. 

Rae Leigh: I can tell, I think I'm fairly stubborn as well, but I think it's, you need to have a certain level of focus. and stubbornness. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. It's I mean, to finish an album, it's a massive undertaking, to actually, I mean, I've never done the, take 10 grand to Nashville and record an album in three days.

I've never done that. I know a lot of people that do and that's fine. And that's really a monetary thing, I guess. But you know, for me, an album starts out, with me in front of my computer recording an album, like that's how it starts. It's 

Rae Leigh: recording. 

Brook Chivell: So the last album, I. Recorded the drums in the studio and DINAMIT pony music in Melbourne.

And then the rest of the stuff was recorded on my computer, except for the vocals. Yeah. Yeah. So that's, I mean, I like to be a part of the whole process and it's not necessarily bad about control because sometimes I'll write I'll be laying a song down and I'll just throw the kitchen sink at it and it'll have mandolin and banjo and 15 acoustic guitars and blah, blah, blah.

And then I'll say to whoever's mixing it, just cut out what you thinks superfluous, because there's too much stuff on here. I'm I know that, but you know, we sometimes get demo whiteness, you get so attached to that little thing that happens at the two minute and 22nd mark that you can't hear past all of the other clutter that's happening in the song.

So I'm not I'm I don't mean I can't do mixing. It's not, I don't have the ear for it. It's not my thing. 

Rae Leigh: I think everyone needs to. It's like, I think there's a certain amount of time that you can listen to one song and be recording and mixing at the same time before you need a break from it. or you need fresh Because I don't know what it is.

It must be some sort of scientific thing, but everyone's the same, doesn't matter how trained you are. You can miss stuff. 

Brook Chivell: Well, Humana times, even pros will be doing a mix and now I'll have a listen to it before they shut the computer off at the end of the night or the mixing desk or whatever.

And they'll be like, okay, we're in a good place. And then we'll come back in the morning. So what was I thinking? 

Rae Leigh: where we were there And yeah, I think it's just, yeah, sometimes you just need a break and that's a good lesson to learn, I think it's to allow time to have that break or even like writing a song, leaving it for a little bit, come back and listen to it in a couple of weeks time, allow yourself to forget about it.

Brook Chivell: I'm terrible. I'm terrible at editing. Like, once a song is written for me, I'm like, oh, that's done. Let's move on. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I'm only learning to rewrite now. And I think it is a good thing. 

Brook Chivell: It's definitely a good thing. It is. And a lot of songs we get changed as there'll be exactly the same all the way through, from writing all the way up until I record the vocal and I'll be like, ah, I just want to change some of this stuff. So I'll, that'll happen a lot with it 

Rae Leigh: I've done it before the mixings happened in Europe. And I just did all the vocals at home and I sent it off, a saying like what you said, look, there was so many harmonies and everything like, everything was there. And the idea was that they cut it and they sent it back mixed. But with everything, and I was like no, you need to take some of that out It's too much, like I knew that was too much, but I wanted to give them options.

But then in the future I didn't give them as many options. because It is subjective. 

Brook Chivell: Oh yeah. I mean, guitar recording, there's I would always give the engineer. Two close. Mike's two distant mikes and half the time they just wouldn't use any of them, which is, oh, they'd use one, one. And sometimes they just wouldn't put that guitar part in and I'm like, okay, well, 

Rae Leigh: and in, you might like think, oh, that was really good take.

And then, yeah, like I've had that this years where like, I'm like, oh, that was such a good take. Like I felt it. And they've not used it. And it's like, they didn't feel it. So a bit, it could just be that one person. And that's why for me, it's really important that the person who's mixing or producing the song has some sort of connection to it or feels it in some, on some level, which isn't always easy,

to find. Still looking. 15 years later, 

Brook Chivell: but I've been pretty lucky. Like I've worked with a guy in Melbourne, Adrian Hannan. His name is, and also work with a guy pier, Jared, Adam. So both of those guys are really good. I've worked with other people as well. And. No. We're okay. It's just, for me, it was, I'd worked with Adrian, did my first album and he did half the second one as well, but it was just going back and forth to Melbourne is expensive.

He's not cheap either. So it was like, okay, let's look for different options. So I worked with a couple of other guys and they did a good job and it was fine. But I just didn't feel that, well, one of them didn't care about the song at all. Like he just didn't care about it at all. I was just a dollar thing and that's fine.

That's what his job is. The other guy was kind of a, I took a couple of rock songs or the rockiest songs to him, and he's a rock, he's a rock guy. Like he's worked with screaming jets and and that coaches all and that kind of stuff. And I went to him specifically for that. And and he did a great job for the Rocky stuff.

Didn't tune any vocals, which is, I'm never like. 

Rae Leigh: are you always get order 

Brook Chivell: Everybody does. Oh yeah. If you listen to anything from the states, every single, every 

Rae Leigh: tell me they don't and I'm like, I can hear it. Don't Tell me, you not, if you are. 

Brook Chivell: every vocals chained in the states. Like if you listened to American Nashville, if you listen to a Nashville album, the old trained they have to pay, it's just, what's expected now.

Rae Leigh: to be perfect.

You have to 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. 

And those guys know how to do it. So Joe can't hear it. Average, Joe has no idea that's what's going on. I mean, obviously there's times when you just got armor 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. 

Brook Chivell: that's ridiculous. Anyone can hear that, but I mean, people don't care. The thing is in the end, it comes down to the song like you're thinking, oh yeah, it's my integrity.

And but in the end, people just want to hear the perfect version. They'll come and see live if they want to hear seeing out a chain.

Rae Leigh: Oh, that's true. Although there are some stages now they do, like it's, automatic order tuning. through the desk Yeah. Yeah. to give people what they want to hear, which is what they hear. on the 

Brook Chivell: Oh, I mean, I've had friends, I had a friend who worked in the states as a sound engineer for Randy Houser. And he told me about several artists that, I mean, big artists.

And they traveled with racks of auto train units, all S all set in different ways and blah, blah, blah. And I mean, Randy has it doesn't use any of that stuff. That God's a monster. He just goes out and sings a song. But I mean, whatever, he gets to the show whatever he gets to you, the show 

song.

Rae Leigh: song is the most important thing, which is why we're here. Okay. I really like that. Thank you. Good information. And I think it's good for us to know, like what goes into that sort of stuff, because it's really easy to compare gardens compare, like if, as an independent artist, what we're doing as a soloist versus what people do in Nashville, or like what people do in really big professional set ups.

And we're like, Sometimes your open mic guy is just as good as the guy playing at the stadium, but these guys want to have the numbers like the marketing and PR behind them. But also they've got the lighting and the sound and the auto tune. Like they've got all of that makes them look bigger than Ben Hur versus, your open mic.

That's 

Brook Chivell: I don't, I mean, I th I think there's something to be said for, obviously that the intimacy of, just seeing your songs in front of 10 people or whatever, I've always found that way more intimidating than being on front in front of 10,000 people. But, I mean, there's in this, in the same vein, like there's nothing to be afraid of.

As far as auto train goes, there's nothing to be afraid of as far as, production stuff that you can't do live. Because I had a friend say to me a really long time ago, cause I was always like just drums, bass and guitars, and then we'll go in there and bang the vocals out and that's it.

And he said, why would you want to put something out that isn't the best possible version of what it could be? If it, if you need a mandolin on that song, you don't have a main Dalene play alive. Who cares people. Aren't going to know, but put out the best possible version that you can. So I've always, striven, strove, trope, I strive, but that to be the case, 

Rae Leigh: I can edit that. This one, 

Brook Chivell: whatever, 

Rae Leigh: That's the thing is like, it is about putting your best foot forward.

And especially if it's something that is something that someone's going to listen to over and over again, I think that is beautiful to have that. And then to see the comparison and the difference. To live. And like when people stuff up online, like live situations, like that's, what's so beautiful about live is because only you and the audience there in that moment is going to experience that live mistake.

That is, it is the mistakes that makes it so beautiful. Yeah. If it was perfect, they could listen to that online They're not there for that. They're there for you. And to hear 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I like that. I personally like that vibe too. I mean, I've saw, I went and saw a and I have two, two years ago. Yeah.

Cause it Shanaya and you want to go and see it and she mimed for at least three quarters of the show. Yeah. And I get it, like she's had Lyme's disease and voices not, I mean, it was the original, it was the original vocals off, her big songs, like just taken straight off the album.

Yeah. But I just, didn't like, I'm not a huge fan of that. I would prefer to go and see someone. Kind of flying by the seat of their pants, miming, the miming thing. I'm not a big fan of, but, and to be honest, when I walked out, I just don't, I just feel like that was a waste of money. It was a great show and she's amazing.

And now I can say I've seen her, but you compare that to, go on and see Keith urban and yeah, I use it a lot. He's got a lot of backing tracks going on, but you know, he's playing live, he's singing live all the guys in his band playing live and there's plenty of footage online of Keith making some 

Rae Leigh: and it's different every time he performed, isn't he's kind of known for that. He doesn't play the same song the same way twice. 

Brook Chivell: Well, I mean, there's plenty of instances of him hitting claims online. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I think that is beautiful. And that's yeah. And with the Miami thing, I think I have compassion around like, especially people like Shanaya when to be an artist for that long. And like you said, your health is going to deteriorate There is only ever so long, you can.

Do it for, and then eventually you've just kind of got to keep those fans happy and like I don't know, I would struggle. And I don't know what I would do if I was in that 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people were really happy to see her come out and do the shows just because, I mean, it's a similar situation, but it was huge college coaches or fan as a kid and then they broke up and I'd never seen them live.

And I thought, oh, well, that's just never going to happen. They're never going to get back together. And I remember when I went to set and this is that we're completely live, obviously, but I went and saw them when they did their first comeback. And I actually cried. I was sitting there crying in the crowd because I, and it was one particular song that I just added hit me.

I went, I never thought I'd get to see this, so it was pretty awesome. 

Rae Leigh: See, and that's why You need to do it, for the people that for some reason have connected to your songs and feel a part of What you've done it's kind of, it's an act of service. 

Brook Chivell: It's difficult because I'll be, when you're in a band situation, like it can very easily turn into, I just hate you as a person.

I don't want to be anywhere near you, it's not. And I kind of get, yeah. 

Rae Leigh: Have you ever heard the the conflict thing you can only ever have conflict if There is a common goal. So it's like a conflict resolution thing that people I learned through corporate life, but as musicians in a band, you all have the common goal.

of Hopefully delivering the best show in the best music you can possibly do for your audience. And the conflict is going to come around. When you all have different ideas or even two of you have different ideas on how to do It's like What your idea is of the best. And then it can get really personal and narky. It can go completely away from the common goal is like, well, What do you both want? You both want to deliver a great show, and great music, and it can be hard to to come back when it starts to get personal and resentful and like, and it's yeah. it takes maturity 

Brook Chivell: or girlfriends of the band off on, they're always an issue too.

Rae Leigh: so right. Your role is you need to be mature and not be in a relationship. and you're sweet. All right. 

Brook Chivell: Mature is the main part of that. Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: If you could co-write with anyone in the world living or dead, who would it be? and why? 

Brook Chivell: Can I have to, 

Rae Leigh: No. Okay. if you ask nicely, 

Brook Chivell: Buddy, Holly would be my first one. He's. I mean, that was the first music I ever heard that resonated with me as a kid, because that was my dad's music.

So that was the only one of his. All the stuff that he listened to, that I was like, oh, this is really cool for some reason. And Keith obviously love to meet. And I mean, not that I don't think I'd sung. Right. To be honest, I just talk. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I'd totally write a song with Keith. yeah, sit down. and be like, Let's do something.

I actually, I liked that human Amy shock of Dennis hung really cool. It was totally unexpected. I was quite surprised. when I saw that come out, but I was like, interesting. and it's it's nice to people lifting each other up and working together. I think that Australia could definitely, have some medicine of more collaboration.

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I think, because it's such a small industry here. Everyone's protecting their piece of the pie, but we should be trying to grow the pie. 

Rae Leigh: Just grow the all right. Yeah. I'm not like for me, I'm quite open. And poly when it comes to the industry, I'm like, it's not competitive.

There's not a limited number of music that can be liked at any one given point. It's like, people are not monogamous with their music. You've just got to like, love it and just do what you want to do and run your own race. And 

Brook Chivell: And it all comes down to probably the best piece of advice I was given, going back to all that way back.

Brandy said to me, it's all about connection. It's 100% about having that song that connects with people, and everything else 

Rae Leigh: for those who don't know, Brandy is 

Brook Chivell: oh, Adam brand. So for everything else that you release is just a vanity project. If it doesn't connect, it's just, doing you. But when it connects with people, that's when you know it can really move the needle and, get things moving for you.

As far as your career goes, 

Rae Leigh: My favorite advice of all of these podcasts was from limbo toe And she said the more personal is usually the more universal. And I think the more I've thought on that advice is it's probably very true. Like the most personal songs of mine have been the most like received. Well, 

Brook Chivell: I think it's, I think you're right when you're writing those songs and you're thinking, oh my God, this song is so specific to me.

Nobody else is going to get it. And that's the one that everybody 

gets 

Rae Leigh: We all feel like that. We all feel weird. We all feel isolated and unique and like, no, one's gonna love us for who We really are. And then I think when we start to say that and be vulnerable and actually go, actually, Hey guys, this is actually who I am.

Other people go, oh my gosh. Yes. That's who I am too. But I've been pretending to be this other thing that I thought everyone wanted me to be, but I don't have to anymore because you're telling me that you like that, which makes it okay for me to be like, that. and that's like, yeah, none of my songs were ever meant to be released.

They're all personal. I know it's like, okay, well, here I am. And then take it or leave it I don't care. 

Brook Chivell: The MetLife for me, it's because I try and keep my stuff pretty up. That's the difficult part. Like I've got a ballad, like all correct. 10 ballads every day, very easily. No problem. But writing a good, party, upbeat song is there's a skill to that.

That is completely a pot because it's not necessarily an emotional thing. Emotional songs. I find really easy to write because it just, it flows. It's emotion. It's part of you already. But when you're trying to write a song, that's gonna make people, have a good time. That's what I find. 

Yeah, generally. I mean, I've obviously I've been through phases. Everybody has, but yeah, generally and definitely like the glass is half full. Yeah. I've always 

been, 

yeah. And to be honest at my age, if I wasn't, I would be, just an accountant.

Rae Leigh: okay. Grumpy old, man. I'm not saying you're old, but all right. And So you also mentioned earlier that you were thinking about doing a podcast Why haven't you done? the podcast yet? cause it's Like, I think everyone should be podcaster just as everyone should be a song writer. like, that's just my thing is no competition. 

Brook Chivell: Just the procrastinating. No, I don't know. I guess I'm not afraid of it. I'm just, I know it's going to be a time commitment that I don't know if I'm ready to make at the moment.

Rae Leigh: I've had a few people ask me about, Because everyone's at the moment it's a big thing. dull 

Brook Chivell: podcast 

Rae Leigh: It is a huge time commitment. And so the one thing I tell people is just make sure that you are super passionate about it because the amount of podcasts that are starting and stopping within 10 episodes is ridiculous. Probably like we talked about artists coming in and then stopping like really quickly as well.

Be understanding that it's a lot of hard work, but if you love it and it's something that comes naturally to you anyway, like these are the conversations I would, I love having with people down at the pub over drink anyway, I'm just recording it. I'm learning, hopefully anyone who is listening will learn as well.

But yeah, you have to probably be a little bit stubborn, a little bit autistic, but as long as you're having fun. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess the other thing is because it is a similar deal. I just, I have that I guess on the inside, I'm just like, oh, who would actually want to do that? Who would want to come and talk to me?

Rae Leigh: Well, I'm a, nobody, 

Brook Chivell: Cause I just I really don't have that front. I'm the guy that is at an industry party, standing in the corner, talking to the one person that I know at the thing I'm not. I don't go. I just, 

I know it comes across as arrogant because I've had people tell me, they're like, oh, he's so arrogant.

I'm just like, nah, I'm just super shy. And I'll just stand in the corner and talk to that. For example, the last CMC awards that they had up here on the gold coast. I literally talked to two people for the whole pre show because I knew them already. And I saw other people wander around and talk to everybody in the room.

And it's just not me. 

Rae Leigh: wish he could 

Brook Chivell: I do just have that. It's the fear of rejection that I've had since I was a little kid. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I think we all have that and we all have it on different levels and it impacts us on different 

Brook Chivell: levels. 

Rae Leigh: I was super shy as a kid, like so shy and I was the fourth of six children and I saw a lot of my oldest siblings get bullied and all sorts of stuff happened and I'm like, I was so desperate for it to not happen, but also really vain.

Like I thought that if I had straight hair, straight teeth and clear skin, that then I wouldn't get bullied and I'd be accepted. And like, I literally, that's what I prayed for as a kid, the pastor's daughter is praying for straight teeth, straight hair and clear skin. because All of my older siblings have curly hair had terrible acne.

And I think I just didn't like non-straight, I didn't like, and I think about, and I'm like why, but it's like, we have that fear of not being good 

Brook Chivell: Yeah I was a fat kid, so I had to deal 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. Chubbiness. Yeah. me too. And then it had a growth spurt And then I got into sports. And then and I'm a control freak. I was before I had kids, I was at the gym six days a week and I do miss it.

But at the same time I had to learn to let go. a little bit. 

Brook Chivell: I am at the gym six days a week. 

Rae Leigh: You're still doing it. 

Brook Chivell: I'm still doing it. 

Rae Leigh: All right. There's plenty of times. So what have you got coming up this year? You're doing shows, we've talked a little bit about that on your live, but and you released an album 

Brook Chivell: or released an album. 

Gee, I guess it was two years ago now, how did that happen? But yeah, that was so basically because of the way that the industry is now releasing an album, just recording an album and then releasing it as an entity is, I mean, it's not really even a thing anymore.

I mean, people do it obviously, but I feel, I mean the last album, Audrey I'd released six singles that are then packaged with some more songs and that became the album as opposed to doing it the other way around where you write all the songs and then you, so that's just kind of the way that I did. And I feel like a lot more people are doing that these days.

So yeah, there's still at least one more song to come off that, but I've been right. I've got six songs in the process of being recorded at the moment. Two are completely done. 

Rae Leigh: So you're thinking that it relates to Ms. Singles? 

Brook Chivell: I dunno, it's. It's pretty retro stuff. It's 

Rae Leigh: expensive to do that 

Brook Chivell: yeah 

Rae Leigh: It's a lot of money for one song 

Brook Chivell: even. Well, yeah, but I feel like it's more achievable rather than you record a whole album and it costs you X let's say 30 grand.

And then you have to go and do release a single pay for the, pay for it to get distributed to radio, pay for the video, clip, pay for the PR pay for the song, pitcher, all those things. After you've done the 30 grand input, it's like, I've just, 

Rae Leigh: is why we need labels in independent artists.

Brook Chivell: Yeah It's 

I mean, I feel like you go in and you record a song. It probably cost you between, Two in five grand to record the song, maybe depending on how much you do yourself and et cetera, and then you do the, all the other things and you probably, I mean, each release is probably 10 K I guess, or around about, so if you do those 10 Ks one at a time, it's just more achievable and doing the 30 grand album and then trying to do the, 8,000 on top of that each time.

Rae Leigh: Yeah. And this is a really good point as to like why independent artists, like mainly I think the word independent is just like, I'm independently funding this because you still want to work with a big team of people just like in a record label, they have that big team of people but the record label is funding and backing the artists. and the artist is just joining that team as the talent I guess, or as the songwriter or the performer And that's their role within that team.

Whereas. independents have to be like the CEO. You have to be the boss, 

Brook Chivell: not to mention marketing, et cetera, et cetera. And which I'm terrible at. 

Rae Leigh: my corporate job is marketing and advertising for eight years 

Brook Chivell: I'm currently in the process of hating all social 

Rae Leigh: media. 

Brook Chivell: So that's not ideal. 

Rae Leigh: a roller coaster. Everyone goes on. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I did it for a really long time where I was, pretty active and now I'm just like, I dunno. Like I just, I feel like I'd rather go out and play gigs and my fans one at a time. 

Rae Leigh: Me too, if I think if I couldn't do like, an echo, that's the thing that COVID really hit for me was like social media was just a means to get people to the gig so I could connect with 

Brook Chivell: them. 

Rae Leigh: And so when like the individuals or the online lives that happened during COVID, and it kind of like 

Brook Chivell: actually stopped me doing them 

Rae Leigh: oh yeah me too. 

Brook Chivell: cause I was.

I was the O G like I did a weekly Facebook live for four years before that. And I just went, nah, it's enough. Everyone else 

Rae Leigh: is doing it Now 

Brook Chivell: Bugger it. So I did, I stopped, 

Rae Leigh: it was one of those things that like, I did quite a few nights. We did some of the festivals with country kickbacks And like, it was nice to stay connected, but at the same time I felt so alone just being home.

I didn't feel like I was actually able to connect with people in the same level as you do live. And I just missed that 

Brook Chivell: It's yeah. It's a completely different kettle of fish. And especially, during COVID like every man and his dog was gone, like, I mean, it's, thankfully it's slowed down now, but at the time, yeah, every man, his dog was going live and it's like, it's no different than watching Netflix, you're just flicking between stuff or like, oh, live now.

Oh, go over there. And it, like, I'd see it, I'd be live. And then I. Somebody else would go live, specifically, if it was a big name, I need to see numbers fall off and fall off and like, oh, it's five people now, how did that 

Rae Leigh: And how Having, a, an accountant brain? I imagine watching the numbers with social media would be really challenging.

being quite analytical. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I just, I don't know. I just feel like it's, so occasionally I'll go through and like, I don't know any of these people, I don't know if they care. What is the point? And it's specifically on 

my 

Rae Leigh: a terrible path to go down, but it happens. 

Brook Chivell: on my aunt. So I've got obviously my music page and my personal page. And for a long time, it was hard to get engagement on your music pages.

So I focused on my personal page and literally there's 5,000 people on there. I probably know 200 of them, like on a even superficial level. And most of the other people, like, I, I don't know who you are. 

Rae Leigh: broke a bone and you're in hospital, who would you call? 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So, and I just think, I feel like so many people place an emphasis on that as being something that actually matters.

I just don't feel like it matters. I just, I feel like the amount of people that are on social media and specifically, I get really disheartened because it's so easy for a pretty girl to make money on the internet. 

Rae Leigh: I'm still trying. I'm not pretty enough, maybe. 

Brook Chivell: it's, no bit, like you're not make money. I should say, just get followers.

It's a lot easier 

Rae Leigh: They're all creepy. All guys who were like masturbating to playing, like Honestly, I did it live with country kickbacks with Denny and it was one of these festivals and Beck Gracie had to, after this, we had to have someone who was monitoring the comments because I was singing And this guy was like, oh yeah, baby, make me come like with your eyes.

And I was like, I'm singing my song. and I'm singing. these comments pop up. And I'm like what? the actual, like, 

Brook Chivell: I know girls obviously deal with a lot more of that kind of thing than dudes do. So yeah. I am thankful for that. I only get the odd, creepy comment 

Rae Leigh: from 

Brook Chivell: girl. It's very rare, but nobody's sent me, 

Rae Leigh: me, I just like to do it to guys, to like, let them know what it feels like.

I'm the creepy old lady at home with their kids. It's like, 

Brook Chivell: I'll look forward to those comments. So they're amazing. But yeah, it's just, I mean, you see people come in that, I just look at it and go, you've never played a gig, you know what you're doing, but you're pretty, and I see this thing happening, but then, on the other side of it, you go to a gig and it's obvious, they've never played a gig.

That they've never played a game, that they don't know what they're doing. And. 

Rae Leigh: was it obvious in Tasmania? Because I said that to Brandy and before we went on, I'm like, this is my first time and he's like, you'll lie. And I'm like, no, 

Brook Chivell: No, I was not. You were good. You were good. Yeah. I wasn't specifically Amy come into you.

But there's a lot of people there. I mean, I guess it's like every it's like everything, there's people that are in this just for the fame, they just want to be well-known they think this is their step, I guess in a, in another sense, social media has been good because a lot of the people that would have come into the scene as, the new style, it just don't bother anymore.

They just go to Instagram and they can get their, 

Rae Leigh: million followers. 

Brook Chivell: they can get their rocks off over there. 

Rae Leigh: Think a lot of record labels initially were signing people based on the fact that they had a huge following on social media and quickly realized that social media following does not equal ticket and ticket sales, is where they make the money?

And so, a lot of people got themselves. Stuck in that situation. I think you're right. Like it, it's looking for validation and it's like, I love having people comment and talk to, and engage with and like, listen to the music and then I get these messages where it's like, oh my gosh, I'm having a crappy day, but at least I've got your music.

Thank you so much. Oh that's Those are the people that want to follow me. And like, You can talk to me all day long, actually in Tezi. I met this guy, Jason. And he like, I love him and he sends me messages, and just totally respectful, but like just connects with the music and it's really helping him. And like, that's, they're my best friends.

They're my family. They're the people. And the reason I do it and everyone else is like me. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess that's exactly what you said is basically just sums it up. It's all in good to have a million followers on Instagram, but that doesn't mean that you will get six people to a gig, except for the six guys that wanna masturbate to you while you're seeing.

You never know. Never know. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. And that's, I'm probably, where I've been told a lot of times I'm too. nice to weed 

Brook Chivell: And that's, I mean, the other difficult thing about the, about social media for me is I can be pretty outspoken and I have to completely edit everything that I'll put online to the point where I just don't bother anymore.

Like, I sometimes we'd get sucked into things and just be halfway through and be like, why did I do this? Keep your mouth shut. So that's that when you're having a one-on-one conversation with somebody, you can actually explain what you're thinking, even if it's a completely opposite end of the field to what the other person believes you can at least have it 

Rae Leigh: and body language and tone of voice says 90% of what you're actually saying.

Brook Chivell: Yeah. And, when you type something on the internet, it could be taken a million different ways and usually is taken the completely opposite way to what you think. So, I mean, I'm definitely one of those, the amount of Facebook posts that I are, replies that are right.

That actually get posted probably like 3%, 

Rae Leigh: I think that's, I think it's good to be restrained when it comes to commenting. I learned a long time ago that the chances of someone turning around and saying, oh yeah, you're right. And I'm wrong. Well done. It's never going to happen. Like, So why bother? And I remember my son during COVID, he started this lemonade stand and it went on within a week.

He'd been on ABC radio and he'd been on channel seven as like a feel, good story. And they just like turn lemons into lemonade and like be a little local celebrity and loved it's really good for his self worth. but it went on social media, got $36,000 views or whatever, like overnight. And they, there were these debates happening in his chat, which is why he got so many streams, which is Great for publicity or whatever. The wee part of me was like, do I go in and defend my seven-year-old son, Who's just selling lemonade as like a lesson on learning how to do a business. really. and I was like, I don't need to. Other people jumped in and they were having this debate, other people. And actually then those people who got really angry at these other people and were defending my son for him.

then came and bought lemonades because they loved 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. I definitely learned the Joe Rogan school. That's from just dropping run, just drop, drop, whatever you want to drop. And don't ever look back at it. He never reads the comments ever. 

Rae Leigh: That's probably healthy. 

Brook Chivell: I think so too. It's like, if you're being a genuine person and you want to get something out there who cares, what anybody else thinks, just put it out there in the world.

And if it is contentious, it probably will get a lot more engagement because the algorithm is going to show it to the people that don't like you as well as the people that do. 

Rae Leigh: And the proof in the pudding is like a seven year old boy selling lemonade at the front of it. like such a harmless thing.

Yeah. So much controversy, mainly because it was a business and other businesses had to shut down. And like there was old it was like, and people were angry at the time. Cause it was COVID never was locked down and everyone's online. It was just a recipe for disaster but it worked and now. he's got his own business and he's an arrogant little boy.

thinks he knows everything. But yeah, 

Brook Chivell: little boys, isn't it. 

Rae Leigh: I mean, We could talk about that for ages. but Is there anything else you'd like to share? before we finish up? 

Brook Chivell: Not that I can think of. 

Rae Leigh: I've drained you with everything you want to say. 

Brook Chivell: I'm hoping I haven't been too happy. 

Rae Leigh: will edit it. This is the beauty of 

Brook Chivell: right. That's always, my problem on these podcasts is like the amount of times I say stuff and then like, oh wow.

I just really went out there because I dunno, I feel like not enough people talk about this stuff, too many people is they've got their shtick down. Like it's how do I not be offensive? How do I not really tell people what's going on? And I just, I don't have that edit button yet. Maybe I'll probably need it.

I'd rather just, 

Rae Leigh: yeah. I want to be real. Be real and 

Brook Chivell: tell people how it is. Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: And you might change your mind tomorrow and be, have a completely different opinion. 

Brook Chivell: Yeah. 

Rae Leigh: And That's okay. Like the most common advice I get on here is be yourself, be you and I'm like, you're Okay. But they use it's you now may not be the you that's you in two weeks, three weeks, three months, few years time.

And that's perfectly fine. You are who you are at any given moment and just, go with 

Brook Chivell: yeah. And obviously that's dictated by the whatever you're going through and that can change so quickly. You just never know what's around the corner and sometimes that's great songwriting fodder, and other times you don't write a song for five years, 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. you shouldn't be ashamed.

of ever believing anything.

And I think it's perfect. So many people don't w you know, they'll tell you something and they just don't want to be wrong. And so, you'll have an argument with someone. I don't know if you've ever had this. I've had these arguments where it's like, they've realized that they're actually, wrong. 

Brook Chivell: oh, I've dated that 

Rae Leigh: girl 

Brook Chivell: so many times 

Rae Leigh: they just don't want to admit that they're wrong so that they, they will fight black and blue, that the sky is red, 

Brook Chivell: luckily.Luckily there's Google now. So 

Rae Leigh: Well, that's the point. it's like, their opinion is mistaken as fact. And then I think that's something that everyone has to learn at some point in their 

Brook Chivell: Yeah it's 

Rae Leigh: be humble.It's okay. 

Brook Chivell: There's a guy who I won't name, but he's, he always says facts don't care about your feelings. And sometimes you have a feeling that something's right.

And they, people will argue about that point, but it doesn't matter what you feel at matters. What's the truth. And one of my, one of my least favorite sayings ever, and I it's actually, my pet peeve is my truth. No, there's the truth. There's your opinion. There's my opinion. There's the truth.

There's only one of those, everything else is just your take on it and that's fine. Have you take have your opinion? I don't have to care about yours. You don't have to care about mine, but the truth is what. Actually 

Rae Leigh: And there is the truth is your truth. And then there's the other person's story. And when it comes to mental health, your truth and others need to be validated because your truth is usually when mental health is involved, your truth is not just necessarily the truth.

but It's the truth mixed with all of your life. experiences and your 

Brook Chivell: And 

Rae Leigh: And, you make this story, you need to look at your core beliefs and work out why that is your truth. But before you can look at it, you have to understand that is just your 

Brook Chivell: truth. 

Rae Leigh: And you have to like be aware of that. But yeah, it's when it goes to like court, or something like that.Yeah. There needs to 

Brook Chivell: yeah. 

I just, I dunno. I just think, I just feel like sometimes words matter and that I, for me, the truth is. The fact that the opinion or, your truth in inverted comments, that's, that can be completely different to what the actual truth is. So, yeah, I don't know. That's just my, but as far as song only goes, it's amazing because you can have a whole bunch of different scenarios that 

Rae Leigh: oh, we should write that song, your truth, you truth. true. just like all the different things where someone says, like, that's your truth.

All right. Brilliant. Well, Thank you so much for coming and sharing. It's been a really good chat and I've learned so much. like, Well, I feel like you've actually been more open and honest and probably more experienced than a lot of people I've talked to. And I think it's good to have those chats because yeah, you're right. It's not something that you learn at school, or music, business, school Like the experience.

is just so important. 

Brook Chivell: I mean, the amount of times I talked to people that have been to college and amazing players, amazing musicians that just have no actual idea about what it's like to be in the working Muzo world. It's two completely different kettle of fish. Like 

I talked to guys that like are man, you should be a teacher at the, at school.

And I'm like, oh man, I'm not a great player. And they're like, no, not for you.

Rae Leigh: That's nice 

Brook Chivell: Yeah, no, that don't mean that I'm bad. They just mean like, it's the, as you said, a lot of people just don't understand what it's like. To be out there and be a working musician. It's not it's not rainbows and butterflies, it's a lot of hard work and people often say to me, oh, you must, you love it though.

You don't. Yeah. And I'm like, man, I'm just out there earning, trying to earn a dollar yell love when I go out and play original gigs. And I mean, any original geek, I don't care if it's in front of three people or if it's him and I'm talking about my songs, I really love those. If it's in front of 5,000 people and they're all, already BNS crowd or whatever it is like, that's all great.

But you know, when you're just out there banging out songs, sometimes it is literally just about making money. And sometimes, you are worried about how am I going to eat tomorrow? 

Rae Leigh: Starving musician is not a metaphor. it's a real thing. 

Brook Chivell: I've eaten no name, no nine baked beans. Mix it with tuna spread over two minute noodles.

I ate that for a good six months. 

Rae Leigh: Tim seems as mine and 200 noodles he had baked beans on while I was at uni student. and that's, I think that's the difference between someone who is driven versus someone who just thinks it might be nice Yeah. because if you think it might be nice, but you're not willing to eat baked beans and two-minute noodles to do it, it's not for you. And experience is like, you need to have a certain level of skill, obviously?

And like, you only really get that via training and education, but experience like if you go for any corporate job, it's not just our industry, it's all industries like any corporate job we'll value experience over education because experience is where you are going to learn how to treat people and to not be arrogant and go with the flow and be in the moment.

And your personality plays a huge role. In how you act as a professional, along with whatever your career is. And like I've known so many people, like I'm going to be a nurse and they go do that. And then they're like, oh, I can't handle the shift work. Or like the old, the fact that people are really grumpy when they're sick.

And like, that was the thing that turned me off. Like when people are sick, I was going to be a doctor But when people are sick. That's when they're at their worst. Like, people are like, it's like permission to be a horrible human . being when you're sick.

That's what People think And so hospitals. And like, even working in pharmacies, is like, do I want to be around grumpy people for the rest of my life, No. Like how about no? 

Brook Chivell: much better that they're drunk and I'm on stage.

There's so much. 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. I'd much rather than be sending me crude messages while I'm performing. 

Brook Chivell: Eddie's weed that I liked when, when you know how to deal with a crowd full of drunk people, or even, a few drunk people. One-on-one the amount of times I'm out with mates and they're like, you handled that really well. Am I do this? My job. That's what I do it. Yeah. I sing songs, but a big part of my job is, being able to make that guy not want to fight that guy 

Rae Leigh: Yeah. People 

Brook Chivell: or me.

Rae Leigh: although I don't know if the pub gig is really my thing, but yeah. Yeah. 

Brook Chivell: it's it is. It's just one of those when you've done, a couple of hundred gigs, it's it is what it is. You just get it 

Rae Leigh: always going to be those gigs with the two drunk people 

Brook Chivell: always 

Rae Leigh: that's when you bring in the ballot. That's what that's full. Stop them from fighting and make them 

Brook Chivell: that's when you play that's when you play killing in the name of, and.Every security officer in the place Heights you guts? No. 

Rae Leigh: all right, I'm going to stop now. because we could talk forever. Thank you so much.