#134 Chris Wallin
A question lots of people ask is how does a struggling starving creative person go from having no money and living on $15 for food a week in Nashville to being one of the most wanted songwriters in town? Well thats exactly what we find out in this podcast with hit songwriter Chris Wallin who has topped the charts with classics-in-the-making for the industry’s biggest stars: “Love Me If You Can” by Toby Keith, “Don’t Blink” by Kenny Chesney, ”People Loving People” by Garth Brooks, “I’m Tryin’” for Trace Adkins, “Something To Be Proud Of” and “Speed” by Montgomery Gentry and many more.
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Transcript
Rae Leigh: Welcome to Songwriter Trysts with Chris Wallin how are you?
Chris Wallin: I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for having me.
Rae Leigh: I'm looking forward to having a conversation with you. I've been listening to your Spotify and your songs are beautiful. I listened to a lot of music and I've talked to over 130 songwriters on this podcast. And I have to say probably one of the best songwriters.I've heard every song and every lyric just gives me tingles and I don't know how you do it. So I'm going to, I want to find out more. It's just beautiful. I need to learn from this guy. That's what I was thinking. I'm like, this guy knows what he's doing.
Chris Wallin: Well, I don't know about that.
Rae Leigh: Maybe it's just you. Maybe it's just the gift a bit. I'm going to find out more. So tell me a little bit about yourself. Who are you and where do you come from?
Chris Wallin: Well, I come from, the U S I come from tennessee. I live in Nashville, but I was born and raised in east Tennessee, in a really small town and when I was little, my mother, when my mom and my dad split up when I was about seven years old and,
Rae Leigh: Hmm.
Chris Wallin: and, my mother moved to Nashville to be a singer and a songwriter. And I moved with her and we ended up living in an apartment on top of a bar on Broadway.
Rae Leigh: Oh, wow. Which one was it?
Chris Wallin: it's called the turf was the name of the bar. It's not there anymore. Hasn't
Rae Leigh: I haven't heard of that one.
Chris Wallin: But, we lived on top of the turf and moms sang there at night. It was a different Broadway back then. It wasn't like it wasn't the tourist destination that it is right now. It was pretty rough back then. They hadn't, you know, there was probably three strip clubs on Broadway.
Something funny. One of my first memories is my mother and my stepdad getting into this huge argument because the good old my stepdad was a, guitar player. He was a studio guitar player, but he come home and, and the good news was that he found a gig, a regular gig to play.
The bad news was, was. It was in one of those strip clubs on Broadway and my, and my mother was not having it.
Rae Leigh: Right. Oh, but you kind of working musician. You can't be that choosie. Can
Chris Wallin: Yeah, well, yeah. But my mother, she was something else. She's like, no, we'll find something else. So she ended up, you know, moving back home, she made a record there and, tell people, I remember her dragging me around to all these bars and restaurants with a 45 record.She had a 45 record
Rae Leigh: yeah.
Chris Wallin: and, and she had these jukebox insert.
Rae Leigh: Oh,
Chris Wallin: and what, what she would do is she would drag me around and she would go into all these places and try to get her 45 record into the, all of the juke boxes around. Yes
Rae Leigh: Right. Did that work?
Chris Wallin: no, we ended up, we ended up moving, moving back home. And so I came back again, Right. after high school.I ended up working for a bail bondsman. I was actually, helped too find fugitives.
Rae Leigh: Wow. What a life
Chris Wallin: Yeah. And then, so I ended up moving back home again and finally about 25 years ago, I moved, I moved to Nashville and it finally stuck. So I ended up, getting some songs recorded and actually have made a living writing songs for 20 years.
Rae Leigh: Wow. So it took you five years to get there.
Chris Wallin: yeah,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. That's that sounds pretty quick. I've heard it's a 12 year career in
Chris Wallin: yeah, It depends. To be honest, there are people, amazingly talented people here that never has the, I thought we were way before me, you know? And, it's kinda crazy sometimes, who ends up moving on and who doesn't, you know, it's, sometimes it doesn't make any sense, but
Rae Leigh: Yeah. The world is its own little living entity. Isn't it? It's an organism that we've just got to let it be.
Chris Wallin: definitely.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay. That's cool. You've written, I mean, I listened to people, loving people , by Garth Brooks and your songs are all very, very good. Whether they've been cut by someone else or, the ones that I heard, I assume that was you singing and the ones that are on your name on Spotify.
And so they're incredible songs. Tell me, when did you first write your song? Did you, did your mum train you up while she was doing it? Or how did it start for you?
Chris Wallin: I, for me, it's just. It's something I've done. seems like my whole life. Like I said, I started when I was seven and my, and, and it was just,
I always tell people there, there was about an eight year time period that I actually had to work for a living.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: I worked for worked in a factory. But it's just something that, I knew, I think it helped me the background that I had. I think it helped me to know that the people that were seeing the songs on the radio at the time. Weren't necessarily the people who created the songs and I mean, don't get me wrong.
I've played in bands. I I've, I've had my own band. I've done all that, but I've always wanted to be the songwriter. I I've never, I have friends that went on to be really big stars, , but I never really got that bug. I never wanted to.
Rae Leigh: side of things.
Chris Wallin: I, I still do shows. I do, you know, quote, hit songwriter shows where I go and tell the stories behind some of the, hits that I've written and, and play them.
But I, I never wanted to be that guy up front. I always wanted to be able to go to, you know, uh, go to the grocery store
when I wanted.
Rae Leigh: He didn't wanna have to deal with the, uh, the burdens of fame. Fair enough. I understand
that. Yeah.
Chris Wallin: But I, you know, I just always wanted to be the guy in the background. Let's just always have been more my
style.
Rae Leigh: That's okay. I mean, everyone's going to have their own thing. I think it's good for you to know what it is you want. And either one is fine. There's no judgment. I think what, what it is you're good at and where, where you feel
comfortable.
Chris Wallin: Right. And I, you know, that's the thing is, is I, I think it really did help me to have that. And, and then when I finally did come here, I had a little bit more background than
some people, you know.
Rae Leigh: No, it sounds like you've got a lot to talk about with them. Very colorful childhood.
Chris Wallin: Oh yeah. Yeah. My dad was actually a. A preacher. My dad was a.
very
Rae Leigh: Uh, no way me too.
My dad's pasta. Yep.
Chris Wallin: yeah. Uh, My dad was a pastor and so I grew up between my mother and my dad, you know, I would go back and forth and I had a lot of churches and bars
in my childhood.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I mean, that sounds like a great education for a songwriter, really. I mean, those two things
Chris Wallin: I
Rae Leigh: perfect.
Chris Wallin: ma you know, I would go and visit mom and she would, she would be sneaking me into bars,
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: you know, um,
while she was singing and, and then I would go to dad's of course we would, um, you know, we'll be there every Sunday and,
Rae Leigh: Hmm,
Chris Wallin: and be in church. So it was, it was, uh, It was, uh, interesting. And I, you know, I have to say I've learned a lot
from both of them, you
Rae Leigh: Hmm. Arcon that would have been quite confusing as a kid to see such extremes in both worlds and to, and sort of questioning
Chris Wallin: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: you. You know, that would have been
for me. I would have questioned a lot
being, seeing, seeing both of those worlds.
Chris Wallin: Well, I had, you know, also, I mean, I, you know, the guitar, when I, when I discovered the guitar, it was groundbreaking for me because I, you know, I was the shy fat kid. And it ended up being kind of like my security blanket, I had my guitar and I remember. In school. I was in English class and, I heard a knock on the door on English class and it was
Rae Leigh: Hmm.
Chris Wallin: music teacher and he came in and he said, I need to talk to the Chris.
Okay. And I thought, you know, first thing I thought I'm in trouble. I don't know what I did, but
Rae Leigh: of course.
Chris Wallin: Yeah, And, uh, so basically what happened was they had a tone test school and I, I think it was fifth grade.
Rae Leigh: Hmm,
Chris Wallin: I, um, uh, I got the highest score in all of the school, on a T on a tone test.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: And he, yeah, he asked me, he took me out of, you know, of class and he, he asked, he said, do you, uh, Do you play an instrument at the time? I did. I played, you know, I played guitar and he said, well, we can't have you play guitar in the school band.
So he lent me his trumpet
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: to play. And I was absolutely terrible. I remember my uncle and my mother know we live right there. They made me go to the pond
to practice.
Rae Leigh: Get out of the house to do
Chris Wallin: Oh yeah, no it, yeah, it was not happening
inside the house. I had to go all the way down and, and torture the fish in the
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Chris Wallin: And I, You know, and I was
always terrible at the time, but I'm never, could
Rae Leigh: You never got any better?
Chris Wallin: I never got any better?
And it was, you know, I would, what I would do is I would listen to them. People and I would, I could play and make, make sound come out and I could actually do notes, but I Didn't know what they
were,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay. Didn't have the theory behind it.
Chris Wallin: No, not at all, and to be honest, I still don't. Course now I know a lot more about theory and a lot more about, about the musical aspects of it, but I still, to this day, can't read music.
Rae Leigh: Yep. So you've got like a natural ear for it. I think it's one of those things you do have to practice, but I play by year and for songwriting, if you consider it a piano or pick up a guitar and just play what you're feeling, that for me is all you really need.
You don't have to know
what you're playing. Someone else knows what you're doing. They can work.
Chris Wallin: every time Someone asked
me if I can read, they asked me if I can read music. I always tell them, well, not enough to hurt me,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: Because for me, when I play, I have songs that went on to be big, hit songs that to this day, when I play them, I couldn't tell you some of the chords I'm playing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, right?
Chris Wallin: For me, it's, it's more about the feel and the, in the emotion, in the song, you know?
I actually, I have songwriting course that I'm working on right now that it's funny that, uh, I'm, I'm kind of messing with this module on it right?
now about it. About melody people, there's a misconception that
you have to be a great musician to be a great melody writer
Rae Leigh: Mm.
Chris Wallin: and it is not true.
It actually, sometimes it's detriment
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: two people because someone who is really good at something, they want to put more of that into the song. And what ends up happening is, you know, you gotta be careful because they'll put what I like to call a chord per word.
And, you know, instead of marriage,
Rae Leigh: people do that.
Chris Wallin: Yeah.
Yeah. Instead
of actually marrying the melody and the lyrics into something that fits together, It's more of Hey, look what I can do,
you
Rae Leigh: Yeah. It's a bit of ego showing.
Chris Wallin: Yeah.
And the thing about it is, is there are amazing musicians that are also amazing melody people, but, um, but yeah, it isn't, it isn't
necessarily a given
Rae Leigh: Yeah, well, that makes me feel really good. Like I, for me, that's really reassuring because I know that I'm not a huge, amazing musician, and I fully rely on, session musicians for my productions. But I would say my, one of my biggest strengths is melody and hooks. I'm the girl that comes up with the line that gets stuck in your head.
And that's, I love that. Like, I, I love it when my songs get stuck in people's heads, but I wouldn't say that I'm amazing musician. And so like, knowing that that's okay.
Chris Wallin: Oh 100%. Yeah. And
Rae Leigh: that.
Chris Wallin: yeah. And the thing about it is, , is like somehow there's a musician here. There's a song right.
here. This is one of the biggest songwriters in Nashville, Craig Wiseman. He wrote , live like you were dying. He wrote, countless number ones, but he is a great melody person and a terrible
musician. His melodies on, when he, when you hear him do his melodies himself on a guitar, it's very. It's dirty. , he doesn't play the chords exactly clean and, but his chord placement is almost always magical
Rae Leigh: And that's where the magic comes from.
Chris Wallin: yeah, it's more of the marriage between the two. It isn't about, how impressive the core progression is. It's if that core progression
compliments the lyrics. I always say, I always say that when you're coming up with melodies, because all a song , is a three minute movie and you have to cast.
You have to cast your character for that movie. And I always tell people when you're reading that lyrics down, when you're just reading without any melody, think about the melody you have. Does it sound like the soundtrack to that movie,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. That's a really good way of thinking of it
Chris Wallin: I have a, actually in my course, I talk about the narrator and something I never hear anybody talking about. And that's why I did a whole section on it. And basically that the narrator is not the person singing the song, but the character. The song is portraying. It could be any genre, any type of song, every song you've ever heard, if it. has lyrics has a narrator. And basically it's, someone that is, telling the story of the song. And what would that narrator say and how would they say it? You might have a song that is about a college guy that sees this girl and he, and he's out drinking and you can kind of see that guy.
Well, there are things that, that guy wouldn't say, and you have to keep that in mind and, and keeping the character in the narrator. It may be a. woman that is, just keyed her husband's car and is not very happy
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: about what he has done and, that person is going to talk in such a way and, an overall feeling that someone else wouldn't have.
And a lot of people, they don't think about that, that there's an actual narrator in your songs. And sometimes you know, to, to make a song more authentic and believable,
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: you just need a narrator,
Rae Leigh: I love that I've never named it the narrator, but definitely the character of the song. And when you think of it like a three-minute movie, it makes sense. Now you're telling a story, but you're going to be telling the story from someone's perspective and you need to consider that.
Chris Wallin: That's the thing is, it is a three-minute movie and, and even the, like I said, the melody, if you think, like I said before, if you think of the melody as the soundtrack, and then you have the narrator and, and, in the song, you might have a plot twist, you know, there's, there's a lot of different, , depending on the genre of song, it is, But it always has a narrator, no matter what kind of song I want to make sure to say that because some people, when I start talking about a narrator, they think I'm talking about story songs and it is true for a story song as well.
But any song with lyrics has a character in it, and just keep that in mind.
Rae Leigh: Very useful advice and it is good to think about. The, the character and the story and the theme that it's in, in the setting that it's in and all of those things I want to know, you've mentioned the course a few times, what's this course that you're doing.
Where did that come from?
Chris Wallin: Just to be honest with you, with the pandemic and everything, it kind of came out of, out of that and me having some free time and, and to be honest with you, it came out of. Being frustrated with with some of the lyric writing that I hear.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay.
Chris Wallin: And so I just kind of decided one day, I said, well, maybe I can start making some notes on this.
And the next thing you know, I'm in my studio for six hours, seven hours a day, and making, learning how to make slides and, I bought a teleprompter.
Rae Leigh: Oh, wow. Well done.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. anyway, I ended up making this, uh, if anybody wants to go check it out, it's building great songs.com and I'm just now I'm pretty close to finishing.
And yeah, I'm really excited about it. I've got some interesting, I'm going to be doing some affiliates as Well and it'll be an interesting thing that it's something that's out there that, you know, that, um, that's going to be out there from now
on. So it,
Rae Leigh: Anything that's, I'm supporting people into
writing better songs. I'm all for.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. And I also do mentoring as well. I do, you know, one-on-one video mentoring,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: but
you know, with this, I, you know, someone can buy this course and I can be teaching them about songwriting when I'm
asleep. So
Rae Leigh: Yeah. It means it's something it's accessible for people all over the world. No matter what the time zone is. And you clearly have a lot to share. And I think that that's beautiful because it's going to be there forever. And anyone who wants to learn how you do what you do and what you've learned in your lifetime, they're going to be able to go and see that.
And that's a beautiful gift and a legacy
to give to other people.
Chris Wallin: Well, I just want, you know, I made a decision that I want to be a part of great songs, whether I'm writing them or whether I facilitate someone else to write them, because I tell you music, great music is very powerful
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: It can change lives. It, there are songs that, that are special and we need more of those
kinds of songs in the world.
Rae Leigh: That's the preacher part of you coming up?
I recognize it right now. I can hear my daddy anytime.
Chris Wallin: Yeah, yeah. I mean it, you know, that's, that's what, that's, that's the cool part though, that, that, being able to, to reach out some people think that the hardest thing about songwriting is, making someone feel something that you're feeling from the song. And that isn't true. The hardest thing about songwriting is taking a feeling from a third party.
Someone else that you have never felt and make a third party feel.
Rae Leigh: yeah,
Chris Wallin: Because if I wrote, if I just only wrote what I knew, I would have like five songs
Rae Leigh: yeah.
Chris Wallin: I don't know, I mean, you only go, uh, you know, when I, when I first started, of course you, you ended up, w what is important to you?
And usually it's a balid nine times out of 10. It's always a baild and yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that's it because the ballads have the feelings, they have the, uh, the emotions and, and that's what you, you start off with. I literally had, when I worked with Warner brothers,
Rae Leigh: Hmm,
Chris Wallin: I had a quota.
I mean, I,
Rae Leigh: yep.
Chris Wallin: I couldn't, just write just when I ever, I wanted to, I literally had an office that I came into every day. I wrote five, six days a week
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: and was booked up
three months. I'm so glad I don't do
that anymore, though. I'm so glad because
Rae Leigh: You got over it after a while. I mean, that sounds like my dream, cause I've never done that. I mean, I would love to just be writing
songs all day every day, but it would get old, I guess.
Chris Wallin: well, it doesn't get old, but it, but it gets, pretty soon you write all of your ideas, like ideas become gold, like great ideas become gold Because , if I come up with an idea, I automatically think, oh, I know who I need to write that with and I'll
go write it.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Right.
Chris Wallin: So.
Rae Leigh: to get to write another song,
Chris Wallin: yeah.
So, but now I found the whole way I do business has changed because now I ride almost strictly with artists because artists, nowadays, so many artists are writing on their own records that you have a much better chance of getting on the record if you ride it with an artist.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: And, but Yeah.
I, I was gonna tell you to, we touched on this a little bit, but my first cut I ever got the song I ever got recorded was in Australia.
Rae Leigh: Oh, really? Which one was that?
Chris Wallin: Well, I had a
couple actually. Let's see. I think I had three. My first one was. An artist named Brendan Walmsley.
Rae Leigh: Hmm.
Chris Wallin: I remember, uh, they said he was playing the, tamworth.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: the festival there. And, but he sang a song called that's what brothers do. And then I had, uh,
Adam bran.
Rae Leigh: I am. I did a gig with
him in March.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. He, um, he cut a song of mine. called
I'm gone to Venus and then yeah, if men are from Mars and women are from
Venus, I'm going to Venus.
Rae Leigh: Oh, I
love that. Sounds like, that sounds like an Adam Britton song.
Chris Wallin: yeah. Oh, it's very uptempo. I've had a
few, songs in Australia and I've always wanted to go there. Maybe I'll make it up
there one.
Rae Leigh: Oh, you haven't been yet.
Chris Wallin: No.
Rae Leigh: Well, you have to come over, come to the gold coast. That's where I am. Adam. Brand's here as well, along with a lot of songwriters. So, come meet everyone, maybe come to the
Tamworth festival
Chris Wallin: I haven't seen Adam in forever. The last time I saw him, he offered me His plus.
Rae Leigh: His bus.
Chris Wallin: Yes. He was explained to me. Uh, he said, yeah, I said, he said, come down. He said, uh, you can, you can use my bus.
and, and, uh, and do some shows here. and
and I that's been years ago, that's
been years ago,
Rae Leigh: I don't know if there is still a bus.
Oh, that's funny.
Chris Wallin: That's the thing is, I'd say interesting how weird, how things work out is, when I first came to town,
I used to, I used to freeze McDonald's hamburgers. I would, I would come to town and.
Because I can eat all week on the McDonald's. I had a special going at one time, it was 29 cent hamburgers on Wednesday.
Rae Leigh: Wow. Okay.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. And they had the special and I would go and I would buy 50 hamburgers, a large fry And a diet
Coke. So,
Rae Leigh: your food for the week.
Chris Wallin: yeah. And, and so I was playing my songs for this one publisher for a couple of years. And, but I got a call one day from the company that had the loan.
For the car that I was driving to, that I used to drive, you know, uh, back home before I moved to Nashville. And they told me that
that basically they were going to come and repossess my car, if I didn't bring $860 to, if I didn't, send them $860 that they were going to come and repossess my car.
Well, that, that may as well have been $800,000. I did, I didn't have $8 at the time. And so, yeah, I was calling around my dad and I was called and nobody had had the money and. So, how was it, how was about to move back home? I was, I was at that point, I was like, there's no way I can keep this up. I'm going to have to
just move back home, I guess.
Well,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: I got a call from a guy named Kingsley Brock of king lizard music, and it was Kingsley Brock and Liz rose, Liz rose ended up years later writing almost, I mean, a crazy number of Taylor swift songs with Taylor.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: So if you look on a lot of the earlier Taylor swift songs, all of them will say Liz rose.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: so so basically he, he called me and, uh, that week and he said, Hey, you've been coming to play in a songs. And I would like to talk to you about. About writing for us about being a staff writer at king lizard music.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: So I went there
and he had no idea What?
was going on with me at, at the time he didn't have any idea. So basically I came there and he said, okay, so we love your songs. We, we want to give you $400 for your schedule. A which a schedule a means, every song I have ever written.
Rae Leigh: Whoa. Okay.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. So we'll give you $400 for those. We will, um, uh, We'll say it's the first of the month. It was the middle of the month. So they said for fiscal reasons, for financial reasons, we'll, we'll start it at the first of the month
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: and we'll give you $250 a week. And he said, I Can write you a check right now for $900.
Rae Leigh: What?
Chris Wallin: And he, I mean, it w um, I'll be honest with you. I, I shed a tear or two, but he, he, I ended up leaving there. I went to, a grocery store here called Kroger,
And I went to Western union in Kroger and our west in our Western union
Ford motor credit was the name of the.
Was the name of the loan company, Ford motor credit. I w I sent them
$860
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: and I took the rest of that money. That was on a Monday and Wednesday.
And I went to McDonald's and I ordered 100, 100 hamburgers, a large fry and a diet Coke. And I will never forget. I will never forget this as long as I live.
And I'll tell you why it's because you know, I've actually lost 60 pounds. So I was 60 pounds heavier
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: than I am now. So I was, I was hitting the 300 mark, you know, and so I come up and I said, I told the girls. A hundred hamburgers, a large fry and a diet Coke. And she looked right at me and said, do you want that for here?
Or to go?
wow.
Rae Leigh: I would have said, do you want that for here or the hospital?
Chris Wallin: Well, uh, I guess I look like I could eat a hundred hamburgers in one
slide.
Rae Leigh: I've never even considered
freezing McDonald's if I'm honest,
Chris Wallin: You know, they weren't too bad. I'll be honest, They weren't that bad when you, just because I can eat all week on $15, you know, I mean,
it was, it was so cheap because it was 29 cents hamburgers, you know? So, so.
So I would go and, and they were pretty good until you got down to the very last five and then I just had to pretend it was, a pizza and it was just crust.
That's why it was
so crunchy.
Rae Leigh: Oh, I mean, I lived on baked beans and two minute noodles and dim SIM, like, the, you know, the nasty, cheap stuff when you do it. $2 for a meal or whatever.
Chris Wallin: Right, right.
Rae Leigh: a little bit younger, I guess. So that's probably equivalent, but it is,
I mean, you just do what you have to do, don't you
Chris Wallin: Oh yeah. And
around that time, there was also something that happened. Me and my buddy, his name is Craig Monday. It's his name. And he, he was my first roommate when I first come to town. And, uh, he, he was living with another roommate. In the same apartment building and, um, that he moved in and then he left them and moved in with me when I first come to town.
Well,
the first month that I moved in, I was, you know, I was waiting on my 401k because I was working at this factory and I had this 401k money that I was going to be getting, but it was taking way too long.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: So,
I went to him, I said, Craig, I'm, I'm so embarrassed about this.
I'm so sorry to even have to tell you this. and he goes, what is it, man? What is it? I said, I feel so bad, but I don't have my half of the rent this month. It's the first month
and I don't have it. And he, he looked right at me. He said, don't feel too bad because I don't have mine either. So, so when you ended up there was a mall right beside of our apartment.
We said, well, let's just go walk. What are we going to Do you know, let's go walking around the mall. And so we went walking around the mall and just kind of saying, man, what, I don't know what we're going to do. And it, we ended up being gone, probably a couple of, you know, probably two or three hours. And we came back and there was a, a piece of paper that was nailed to the door.
And he said, what is that on our door?
Rae Leigh: Hm.
Chris Wallin: And we walked up and because he went from. One apartment because he stayed in those apartments and didn't move out of them. And he went from one apartment to another apartment.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: It says, thank you so much for your loyalty. We would like to offer you a month's free rent.
Rae Leigh: Do you think that had really thin walls when I just
heard your conversation
Chris Wallin: I don't know, but him and I just was just looking at each other and looking at the paper and then looking at each other and looking at the paper going, what is happening.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: it was the craziest thing. And I think back on that stuff, you know, I had a couple of those things happen to me. And I think back on, you know, there, there are some very talented people that didn't get that break.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: You know, that didn't get that last minute. Reprieve, that didn't get that just that last minute safe that I got a couple of times and I think about that, you know, I think about it it's, uh, I,
you know, of course from my dad's in my ear saying,
you know, I, I know who it is.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, And do you know what,
like it is,
I think being pass as kid, you know, you're always going to have that voice there, but I've had those moments where there's been, I'm in those moments on a daily basis, even, even today, I'm still there, you know? And it's like, those moments happen where it's like, I don't know what's coming next.
And then something happens in that last minute where you are calling out and it is, it's kind of like confirmation of like, this is what you're supposed to be doing, keep doing it. You know, this is the, this is where I want you to be. And you may not always have what you want, but you always have everything you need.
And that's something that my daddy definitely taught me. And
think those, those moments is,
Chris Wallin: Yeah, right. Yeah. I know. I know.
It just make you
scratch your head sometimes, you know?
Rae Leigh: It's beautiful. I think it's beautiful. And it sounds like you're very intuitive and I think you have to be very intuitive as a songwriter, to be able to know what's to come next. You've obviously had many, many years of following that intuition and, and that, that gut and that passion, and it's paid off for you.
And like you said, it doesn't always pay off for everyone, but everyone's got to walk their own path, you know?
Chris Wallin: right. Yeah. And I, you
know, and that's the thing too, is I've always, you know?
Songwriting has always been one of those things that. I believe in creative cycles. I believe I, especially when I was riding every day for years and decades, I literally wrote almost every day of my life and I could feel creative mountains and valleys, and I could feel myself kind of going out and I couldn't think of anything. And then I could kind of feel the wave coming it's so crazy how that works. I always say songwriters, all we are are filters. Life comes in and then a song comes out the other side,
Rae Leigh: What did you do in those valleys? Those moments? When, because I think that's something that a lot of people struggle with that I've talked to when you want to write,
but it's just not coming out. You know,
it's not
Chris Wallin: I think. The main thing is to know that as you keep going, as long as he keep riding, it's going to come. Because if you've written songs in the past, You know, it's inside you
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Chris Wallin: And it's just that belief and just, it has to, you have to keep going, because if you stop, then there's some people who just give up.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: But the truth is when the cycle comes back up and you're feeling creative. And, I like to call it, who is, I wrote it down the other day. . inspiration. And, and basically it's just a state of mind, you know, it's being in a state of mind that you're constantly listening for song ideas and you're constantly, , you purposely write something down that touches you and, and you have it there.
Cause so many people feel, things like that. Oh, that's so beautiful. And then that was the last thing that, you know, they move on
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: when it's always better to, you know, when you capture those moments to ride them down, to come back to them. And a lot of times that, you know, that inspiration is right there.
One thing I used to do that I never really saw anybody else do is if I had someone that I co-wrote with a lot, which I did, I had, I had a friend of mine named Anthony Smith that him and I wrote a lot together.
Rae Leigh: Hmm. I
saw his name come up a
fair bit in your songs. Yep.
Chris Wallin: Oh yeah. He's, he's great, great talent. But he, he wrote a bunch of stuff for George Strait and, uh, so and I used to have hook sessions where we would purposely
not write a song.
We would go into the sessions because we know we will be writing at least once a week.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: So what we would do is we would go in and have hook sessions and basically.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: We would sit down and just think of hooks for songs. and, and kind of, you know, maybe get a little outline and then move on. We would purposely not write that song
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: and then we'd move on to something else.
And maybe we would go to a bile or this time, or, or an uptempo and try to think of ideas for songs and hooks. And we would that we would write together and we spent all day on that. And a lot of times we couldn't help, but write a song because we would go through all these, um, song ideas and then one would really hit
and we would be like, oh my gosh, this is awesome.
So we would, we would end up writing that song even though we were trying not to And, and so what happens is our next. Co-write we have a whole book of ideas and songs that are started and titles and, and melody ideas. And we would just kill it for, the next time we were riding and, that really helped us.
I mean,
for a long time when we did that,
Rae Leigh: I think that's incredible. I'm going to steal that, Eric and have
Chris Wallin: no, please do, please do. Yeah.
Rae Leigh: And it's similar to, I think I spoke with pat Patterson
Chris Wallin: Oh Yeah.
Rae Leigh: a long time. He was episode 40, which feels like forever. It's almost a hundred episodes ago from it, but, but he talked about doing that, like title, the title game, he talks about it in his books.
It's kind of the same sort of thing. You just bouncing titles off each other, and you've got to use, a word from the previous title to, to write the next one. And then at the end of it. You end up with sheets, full of titles that you can obviously then do whatever you want with.
And, it's such a good creative game. Like it's a fun game. Really? Isn't it. And then you never know what's going to come out of it, but something good always comes out of having fun.
I
Chris Wallin: Well, and also, Yeah.
it's good. Get out of your own head sometimes too, because sometimes when you're riding, you're
just, you know, , I've had a lot of what I like to call co staring sessions
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: where you just stare at each other for like an hour.
Rae Leigh:
I've never had that, but I'm a chatterbox.
So
Chris Wallin: well,
Rae Leigh: talk my head off.
Chris Wallin: well, but that's another thing too is, well, that's that's another thing that I mentioned in my course that, they're all different kinds of songwriters. You have, you know what I like to call, well, there's editors, there's melody people. There's. Lyricist. And there's what I like to call spewers where they just spew out lyrics like one after the other.
And the thing of it is, is a lot of times, a spewer, it pairs really well with an editor because an editor is someone that can, that actually takes that and says, and, kind of polishes it and says, well, maybe we need to put this
over here. Maybe we need to say, and instead of, or
Rae Leigh: I love this, that it is.
Yes,
Chris Wallin: Yeah. I mean,
Rae Leigh: I'm a Spieler maybe I've never heard
that term before, but that might be,
Chris Wallin: well, I made it up
Rae Leigh: I did that in a in a session. Do you know bill white and he's a
Nashville songwriter?
Chris Wallin: bill white. That sounds really familiar to me. I, I
Rae Leigh: a radio
presenter for a long
time,
Chris Wallin: Yeah, I'm sure I met. I'm sure.
I met him.
Rae Leigh: We, we he's a comedy songwriter and I
wrote a
Chris Wallin: Oh,
Rae Leigh: country song that's coming out soon.
Chris Wallin: Oh, awesome.
Rae Leigh: and I did that to him and
it was with someone else from Australia. Who's also a comedian and a songwriter. And I, I specifically wrote with them because I had this commission job to do a comedy song that I, you know, I'm not, I've never written a comedy song before. So I spewed all of my ideas onto these guys and bill just edited it. And it was pretty much exactly what I was thinking just in an edited, like, you know, like he did.
And so it was when you said that I'm like, that's exactly what he did. I just spewed all my ideas onto him and he just
edited it and then, and then made it better as well, like
Chris Wallin: Right. and and and don't get me wrong. There's some people who can do multiple of those, but, but usually you're really good at one of them, you know, you're really good at one one of those,
Rae Leigh: what's your co-writing and, and things like that. What have you found that
your strength is?
Chris Wallin: I'm definitely a lyric guy. I'm definitely like, , I'm usually good at finding, I call them the, the money lines, the twists, the little clever word
phrases and the, uh, and things like, I'm
a geek, I'm a geek on that stuff, you know?
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I can definitely hear those in your songs. And that's I love that stuff. I wish
I could do that. That's yeah, that'd beautiful.
Chris Wallin: Well, listen, if, if I
can do it, anyone can do it.
Rae Leigh: Gotta work on that craft. Become a student, but no, it's.
It is definitely some
things just come naturally, you know, just
Chris Wallin: And, and that's the thing is some people take to certain parts of songwriting and songwriting in general, more than others. And that's just natural. I think that there is a misconception that, and this drives me crazy because, you know, there's a misconception that songwriters, there's some people.
that say, you either have it, or you don't quote unquote, you know, or, or you can't teach songwriting.
And I don't believe that. I think, If that were true, then we would all stay the same songwriter that we were when we first started.
Rae Leigh: Right. Yeah.
Chris Wallin: And, but we learn and we grow and there are, yeah, that's exactly right.
That's exactly right. And, but there are, techniques that you use that a lot of times, you don't know you're using some people write in, are very natural at, at some of these techniques that, that I put in this course, that people don't even know they're using them, but they're there,
Rae Leigh: yeah,
Chris Wallin: I'm wanting to do a thing and I'm probably gonna do it here in the next month.
I haven't, it's a building theme, so what I want to do, I want to do song demo.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: What I want is I'm going to take songs everything from pop songs to country songs, uh, you know, to songs you'd never heard of before that maybe I've written or,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: and, and basically tear them apart and go through part by part, and tell what techniques they used and, what rhyme schemes they use and what they use to get the F the, uh, the emotion from this certain line.
And just, just kinda, and the melody and all that, and just kind of, you know, kind of deconstruct a song
Rae Leigh: It's a little bit, it's like song exploder, like what they do, where they pull songs apart.
And I think they do more of the technical side of it, but,
Chris Wallin: right. I don't know what that is. Song explode.
Rae Leigh: some exploiter there, they started off as a podcast and they kind of talk more about the production and the creation of music rather than the
Chris Wallin: Oh, I see. Okay.
Rae Leigh: but they, they also now have a netflix series, so, you know, one can dream.
Chris Wallin: Well, I'll definitely have to check that out then,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: Mine is mostly, you know, it's very lyrical and very, and just kind of how they pull the emotion out and how some of the techniques that they use. So, so I, I plan on
doing that and, and a couple other things, but
Rae Leigh: like a part of your course or as a workshop or?
Chris Wallin: well, I'm definitely going to be putting it in the course, but, but I'm thinking about doing some sort of live facebook thing. I don't know. I don't know.
Rae Leigh: you tell me when it is, because I'd love to be a part of that. And, and once you do that, that'd be really cool. Um, we'll share it on the page. All right. We are, we have covered so much. Um, and I mean, your life just sounds absolutely incredible. And I hope that you've really felt like you've been able to express yourself and have a voice through everything that you've done.
Have you found that being a songwriter when you're not the artist and mostly writing for other artists, have you felt like you've been able to be heard as a songwriter and get your, stuff out there?
Chris Wallin: Here in the last few years I went down a path that was a professional songwriting path and basically that path. You have to be a chameleon,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: I've written over 1200 songs and some of those songs after talking to me, if I could play you some of the songs and you would never ever think that I wrote that, that song, you know?
And so you have to, you know, you have to be a chameleon and, be able to change,
The way you think in a
Rae Leigh: know Alan, Roy Scott, by any chance,
Chris Wallin: All right. Alan, Roy, Scott.
Rae Leigh: he's a songwriter in LA, but I spoke to him yesterday and he said exactly the same thing. He's a chameleon.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. Well, but here's the thing is in the last few years I have, before COVID hit, I was transitioning into more of a singer songwriter because I perform a lot. So I go around and I perform for corporate events and things like that, so I'm kind of transitioning into, and I, and I've had a couple of records.
I put out a couple of records, but I started doing things in Spotify. I started putting out songs that reflected me, that I loved that. That I thought reflected me as a person and as an artist. And that's a whole different road that because an artist road is unique. You want to be, you want to stand out.
Rae Leigh: Hm.
Chris Wallin: You want someone to hear you and know your voice and know what you're about a solver of professional songwriter, you want to, you want a song that you can pitch to multiple people. It's kind of like a demo singer. A lot of people make the mistake of hiring. If there are a songwriter you never really want to hire a demo singer that has a very unique voice
Rae Leigh: Yeah, no.
Chris Wallin: because you want that song. You want them to be able to hear that song for multiple artists.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: So if you, if you have someone that has just a very, it can be an amazing voice.
But if it's a very unique voice, they're going to make it their own. And when you play it for someone, that is not that style. It's going to turn them away, even though it might be a great song that they might have, you know? So it's just a D like I said, it's just a different road, a singer songwriter, artists to just a songwriter.
And I'm kind of in, in between that right now,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Well, I'm glad that you've, like in this new world where anyone could put anything on Spotify and, you can go out there and perform your stuff that you've found a space where you can put out the stuff that makes you feel good and represents you as an artist as well. And that's really cool.
And like, they're great songs and I can hear there's obviously, I don't know, even just in the few songs I've heard that you've written or been a part of, I feel like there is like, There's something in them. That's like, it's the Chris' wallet. Like, does that make sense? I don't like, and I don't know how you do that, but, um, and I've, I've listened to a few people.
Who've written a lot of songs and sometimes that there is that
Chris Wallin: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I agree sometimes when, when you ride that you develop your own thing that, even sometimes unconsciously that you put into your songs and also if you get a chance, I don't know if you've went to my, YouTube, , or not, but I I've done some on YouTube. I do some live stuff in the studio too,
Rae Leigh: okay. Could you do production as well?
Chris Wallin: Yes, I do I'm a producer as well? But the stuff I put on on YouTube is, is just me and a guitar. It's just, to me, I'll be honest. I did a solo act for years, so I'm more comfortable with just me and a guitar than I am with a band.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, me too.
Chris Wallin: It's just so much Less hassle, and I'm like, you know, the drummer's not getting mad at ya.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I mean, yeah. There's pros and cons to both the solo and the band life. Yeah, it
Chris Wallin: Oh, definitely. Oh yeah, definitely. Definitely.
Rae Leigh: tell me, I've got a question for you as far as what's the best advice you've ever been given and what's the worst advice you've ever been.
Chris Wallin: Well the best advice probably I got a little bit later on in my career that, I was leaving it isn't really songwriter advice. It's more of a, music business advice. And yeah, so I was going to do a new deal with my publisher. I was going to re up with my publisher and my publisher really wanted to not go through, an attorney.
Rae Leigh: Oh,
Chris Wallin: He wanted to just do it, just us, just him and I, and I, you know, I was very, very young. I was a very, you know, I said, okay, well, Yeah. let's do that. Well,
Rae Leigh: Hm,
Chris Wallin: I got to talking to, Craig Wiseman, the guy I was telling you about, I was riding with Craig Wiseman. I was telling him what was going on and he was shaking his head and he was like, Chris, Chris, he's like, let me give you some advice that, uh, that was given to me.
Rae Leigh: Hmm.
Chris Wallin: What were you doing 15 years ago? By the way, my publisher at the time was Charlie Daniel's manager. He had been, he'd been Charlie Daniel's manager for 40 years. He'd been around, his name is David Corloo. He's been around a long, long time. So anyway, he said, so he said, what were you doing 15 years ago? I said, what are you, what was I doing? And I was like, well, you know, at the time I was, I wasn't even 30, you know, I was in my mid twenties and I said, Oh, well, I was, I was a teenager. I was just starting my freshman year in high school,
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: you know? And he said, you know what? David Corlew was doing 15 years ago. I said, I don't know. He goes, he was negotiating deals like this and he knows the ins and outs and he knows the contracts and he knows, about reversion clauses. And he knows about the stuff that I, uh, I know a lot about now, but Yeah.
Then, and, and it hit me. I, you know, I was like, you know what I need, and David, wasn't happy about it. He was not happy that, but, uh, but that's what I did.
And I ended up hiring me a lawyer, and it was the best thing I ever did. The worst advice that I ever had was,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: Before I ever moved to Nashville there was this guy who was at a pro.
He was at, he was at BMI just to
Rae Leigh: Yep. Okay.
Chris Wallin: And I went in to play him songs and he told me he listened to my songs. And he said, I told him, I was thinking about moving to Nashville. And he said, don't do it. He said, this is a 10 year town and you're 15 years away. It cut me to the bone. I went to ASCAP and I went to some other places
Rae Leigh: Hm.
Chris Wallin: and they actually really liked, you know, what I was doing. And, and I moved anyway,
Rae Leigh: Mm.
Chris Wallin: I moved to town anyway. And I'm here to tell you for 20 years, that person has been trying to get me to come over to BMI and
Rae Leigh: I mean,
Chris Wallin: well, but here's the thing. He doesn't know. I was that young kid that he told not to move to Nashville and he, to this day, he doesn't know.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: That I was that guy. He don't remember. Cause I'm sure he met a lot of, but
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: So anyway, I'm glad I didn't listen to him, so
Rae Leigh: people will always remember how you make them feel. Won't they?
Chris Wallin: Yes.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: Yep.
Rae Leigh: That's an incredible story and good bad advice, but hopefully you use that bad advice to motivate you to go off and do what you want to do anyway. And don't listen to people like that.
Chris Wallin: yeah. And that's the thing is, my brother used to say this, what other people think of me? And my music has nothing to do with me.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. That's I love that. Yeah. It's exactly right. If you love it and you're following your gut and it's what you want to do, that's all the medicine.
Chris Wallin: Yeah. I mean, it's, that's when I moved to Nashville, uh, to be honest, I didn't know. I could not tell you that. Was going to be in songwriting. I love songwriting, but I just knew that I wanted to be part of music and where I was living at the time there I was the songwriter, there was no music,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: you know, so
Rae Leigh: I'm glad that you did that. All right. One more question for you. I thank you so much for your time. Cause we've spoken
Chris Wallin: yeah. Thank you.
Rae Leigh: Um, if you could co-write with anyone in the world living or dead, who would it be and why?
Chris Wallin: Wow.
It would have to be Johnny Cash.
Rae Leigh: Oh,
Chris Wallin: Uh, actually a really good friend of mine lived with Johnny Cash for three, for three years. I redeemed was his name. He was with the band trick pony years ago, but he lived with Johnny Cash for three Johnny and June.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Chris Wallin: And. I just, you know, he's one of those people that, that cross genres, because he just did what he did and he didn't give a crap what anybody else thought.
And, uh, and he, I think that, you know, it would be amazing to just sit down with, with somebody like him and, and get, and, and kind of soak in some wisdom.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I love that. That's um, that's, uh, I'll think I liked that when I listened to anyone in any genre, I think you can hear when people are just doing what they love. They're not trying to be something else. They're just being themselves
authentically as much as they can.
Chris Wallin: And that's, and that's the most important part, you know, is being authentic. That's an, I you know, that's the thing is, is someone can be. You couldn't, you could write a song that is, it may not be the, you know, the, uh, big hit. It may not be the most well-written song in the world, but if it is truly authentic, people know,
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Chris Wallin: and it's in, it's more powerful because of that.
Rae Leigh: Hmm. Yeah. I have to agree with it that I was trying to work out the other day. Cause you know, when you're an artist, you've got to find your sound in
Chris Wallin: Yeah. Yes.
Rae Leigh: and, and often producers will, will ask me all the artists. It was like, you know, who do you like? And I'm like, I like a whole wide range of genres and songs and artists.
And when I try to think about what it is I like about them and their sound, I think honestly it's because I feel like they're just being them. And I love that. And I'm like, but I don't know if this sound is actually anything to do with my sound. I know that they're going to influence it, but it's, it's a hard thing to try and work out
Chris Wallin: Yeah,
Rae Leigh: how to have an authentic sound and an authentic everything else around what you're doing.
Chris Wallin: 100%. It really is because, you know, the thing about it is, is, is artists when I was talking about, uh, and artists nowadays, especially in, in the modern sense, I think it's a little different than it used to be. Uh, and I, I think it's sad that it is, but now, especially if an artist is with a record label, a lot of times, uh, you know, they, they can almost become a product
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: sometimes where, where people are telling them this, this is your, you know, this is your demographic.
Therefore, this is, this is the songs you kind of songs you need to sing. And this is, you know,
If you look back historically the true artists, I mean, the ones that are just, you know, ever that are icons never sang a song that didn't represent them as a person or their artistry.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Chris Wallin: And, and I think that is still really important where to, as an artist, to sing songs that represent you
Rae Leigh: Hmm,
Chris Wallin: as a person.
And, and sometimes as far as the sound, it can be something in the background. It can be, uh, you know, a sound that you use that is different from everyone else as well. You know, there's, there's as long, there's a thread in there. And, uh, and as long as the hard thing is finding that thread and, and, uh, but. It sounds like you you're as my dad used to say, uh, just talking to you, it feels like you're, you're fishing in a deep well, so I think,
uh, I think you're going to find it
Rae Leigh: Oh, thanks. I am, I don't know. We usually talk for this long on podcasts. Um, but I, my spirit is staring at what my dad would say. I don't know why, but like, I've, I feel like I've fallen in love and I'm not like I didn't, you know, my husband always says that, um, you know, he knew he loved me from the first moment he met me.
It was one of those moments. It wasn't that familiar to quite a few months, the matrix to fall in love with my husband, but I was totally like anti men for a lot of reasons. Um, but just talking to you, I, I feel that like, I feel like a deep sense of just love and appreciation and like, ah, it's incredible.
And I'm just so grateful to have been out, to have this chat with you and,
Chris Wallin: Oh 100% any time, it any, any time that, you know, reach out to me and, uh, if, if you need me back on or any, anything you need from me, just let me know. And, and, you know, and like I said, I'm just, I'm just trying to figure out my next journey. I'm always going to be a songwriter. All it doesn't matter what I do.
I feel like I was born a songwriter, it's nowadays you have to put out, different, you know, you kind of have to have a lot of irons in the fire and I have a lot out there right now. So I'm just trying to figure out what my next journey is. , and trying to be a part of great
songs when it comes down.
Rae Leigh: I'm exactly the same, you know, we plan our ways where he directs our steps and, gosh, yeah, I'll start sounding like my daddy too, but, but it's just, it's funny how much, how much truth there is in so much beauty in that.
Chris Wallin: definitely.
Rae Leigh: I'm sure. I'm sure we're going to speak again and hopefully we'll get to do some stuff and be a part of some great songs in some way in the future.
And, um, definitely have to catch up
for a hamburger.
Chris Wallin: Hey, they're on me
this time.
Rae Leigh: Uh, sounds good. Um, I'm still in a situation where it's, a carnal sin to turn down free food. So, and I've got three, I've got three kids and sometimes it's baked beans on toast kids, but they they're cool with it, like they don't care. So, I thank you so much. I really
appreciate it. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we finish up?
Chris Wallin: Uh, I also do a podcast with a buddy of mine. Uh, Marty Rey, the podcast is called Marty Ray project chats.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Chris Wallin: And, uh, we interview all kinds of people and we do food reviews. We do all kinds of stuff. So if, you get a chance, check out the podcast, Marty Ray
Rae Leigh: the podcast.
Chris Wallin: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Awesome. So is it it's like it's just talking about anything and everything, or is it music related
Chris Wallin: We have entertainers. Uh, we have artists, and for some reason We interview a lot of MMA fighters. Like, hall of fame wrestlers to artists, you know, country and R and B artists.
But, but yeah.
Rae Leigh: All right. Well,
Chris Wallin: Thank you so much.
Rae Leigh: podcast or singer songwriter on your book,
Chris Wallin: Yeah,
Rae Leigh: know, someone cancels and you need someone I'm usually always available. Um, well, yeah, no, thank you, Chris. I'm really looking forward to sharing this and yeah. Thank you for your time.
Chris Wallin: Thank you so much for having me.
