#121 Hayley Marsten
Hayley Marsten’s sharp pen and open heart led to the creation of her stellar debut, ‘Spectacular Heartbreak’ in 2019. The album was crowdfunded, nominated for Alt-Country Album of the Year at the Golden Guitars, Country Work of the Year at the Queensland Music Awards in 2020, and was streamed over half a million times in the first year. Hayley leads with her heart and her humour both on and off stage which won her fans on her 2019 album tour and wowed the crowds of Fanny Lumsden, Troy Cassar Daley, and Imogen Clark.
We have an amazing conversation around her spectacular break-up songs and experiences, she's a strong wise woman who is sharing her heart in her music and we go deeper into the life of Hayley and where songwriting injected life into her musical world.
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Transcript
Rae Leigh: Welcome to a, Songwriter Tryst with Hayley Marsten. How you doing?
Hayley Marsten: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me.
Rae Leigh: good. So we've met before, but we met a long time ago and I was a completely different person. And I, we kind of randomly met each other at the Q music awards this year. So yeah this is cool to catch up, but I feel I don't have to get to Reno, you know?
In your own words, tell me, who are you and where do you come from?
Hayley Marsten: I am Hayley Marsten. I come from gladstone in central Queensland. I am a songwriter and a musician and many other things. I'm a Gemini. So I guess that kind of as an excuse for, in
Rae Leigh: What's the Geminis traits.
Hayley Marsten: well, Gemini is the twins. So it's like, you've got two sides of your personality, which I was just thinking about this morning is I don't think it's a proper, you know, excuse the way my personality runs, but I am like an extremely one day.
I'll be like, I hate everything I've ever done. I suck at this. I should quit music. And then the next day I'm like, I am. A gift to this world who is she? Like just overly confident. So I don't, maybe that's my own mental health issues. But yeah.
Rae Leigh: Okay. So, so you're Jim and I'm sorry. I was just curious. It was like, I actually don't know what that means. So now I know keep going.
Hayley Marsten: I, yeah, I don't know what else to say.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Hayley Marsten: I don't have a lot. I realized last year that I don't have a lot of Hobbies outside of music. So I'm trying to pick Heuer some, because that seems to what a balanced person would have. So I have started roller skating and I'm rediscovering a love of cooking and I'm much better at one than the other.
It's I'm not a very coordinated person, so it's kind of like watching a giraffe, trying to roller skate for the first time.
Rae Leigh: yeah. I did roller blades when I was younger, but I've haven't I have a few friends that are getting into roller skating. It's like this retro cool thing that people are doing. It looks cool.
Hayley Marsten: it's exactly right. It looks cool. And I feel like it's a really great ego equalizer, because sometimes I'd be like, oh, I'm really getting this. And then I'll completely stack it. So, no serious injuries yet. Touch wood. Yeah, I think 2020 has thrust a lot of people into new hobbies that they probably never thought that they would pick
Rae Leigh: Yes. I've seen a lot of people baking bread in the last 12 months. Yeah. That's funny. So music is your number one thing. Tell, and you said you're a songwriter and you kind of quartered a bit of a hobby, but we're not trying to make it more than just a hobby.
Hayley Marsten: Well, yeah, it's not a hobby. It's just, I don't, I feel like everything that used to be a hobby of mine, I've turned into part of my job. So, which is great and exciting and fun, but also I'm like, oh, I wish I could just do something and not try and monetize it.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, but I'll, maybe that's just a part of your personality,
Hayley Marsten: yeah,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. So tell me how did music, like, how did that become a passion before you started to monetize it? Like, how did you get it?
Hayley Marsten: I S I say monetize that like, I'm some kind of financial genius. I'm not I'm an
Rae Leigh: It's a part of life.
Hayley Marsten: that's right. I grew up as an only child in Gladston, so I. Was making my own fun for most of my life. And I started writing songs when I was about six or seven. And I remember just being so overjoyed when I got a tape recorder.
Cause I could record my own songs onto it. Like I was
Rae Leigh: singing,
Hayley Marsten: Singing. And then I would also record like a radio show. Like I would pretend I was on the radio and I
Rae Leigh: get out. I
Hayley Marsten: I would sing the songs,
Rae Leigh: did that.
Hayley Marsten: just like really chilled stuff. But yeah, I've
Rae Leigh: those tapes, like that would be hilarious.
Hayley Marsten: oh, I would die. I just,
Rae Leigh: Wait.
Hayley Marsten: it was not good. But yeah, I think I've always just been a bit of a show pony. Remember, like my parents would have dinner parties quite often and we'd have like their friends and my dad was an accountant. So sometimes he would have his clients come over and I would be like, okay, everyone now it's time for the entertainment part.
And I would. Make them all sit down. And I had fashioned a, we had like a beam in our rumpus room that I would peg sheets onto. So I could have curtains that open,
Rae Leigh: Oh
Hayley Marsten: The whole nine yards. And then I would force everybody else. If there was children at the dinner party, I would force them to become part of my show.
And, you know, I was very generous. I didn't charge for this. It was free for them to enjoy.
Rae Leigh: generous because it was your passion, right? You weren't trying to monetize things at this
Hayley Marsten: No, I was not really being a very good accountant's daughter at that point, because I was just like, I come and watch my show for free.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, my son he's eight, but he still, he makes tickets and he tells me I have to buy them with pretend money, but I still have to buy a ticket. And then I've got to bring that ticket and give it to him before I can enjoy the show that is also in his bedroom with curtains. And, but it's a part of the game, you know?
Yeah, no, I think it's good to have business skills and being entrepreneurial, even if it's fake money. It's good to understand that money is an essential part of life. And it's not something that kids really learn from school. So if you don't get it from your parents, you ain't going to get it until ever possibly, you know, it can be a hard lesson to learn when you're an adult.
Hayley Marsten: exactly. It's very hard.
Rae Leigh: I wish we didn't need money, but we do
Hayley Marsten: Me too. I wish I didn't have to think of ways to monetize the things I love, but I have to pay rent. So.
Rae Leigh: Someone told me once that money's only about as important as air. You need it to survive, but you don't have to think about it all the time. Like it will come like as long as you, you know, do the right thing. So I was like, that's kind of cool. You only thing. Oh, what do they say? You only think about it when you haven't got much.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: It was like, yeah. Anyway. All right. So when did it change? Were you in high school when you were like, all right, I'm going to become a songwriter and this is something I want to get to the point where I'm releasing and performing in public.
Hayley Marsten: I don't know if I was just had an inflated sense of self for most of my young life, but I was always like, yes, well, I'm going to be a musician when I grow up. Like that's, there's no other option really is there. And I think I was getting to like, Year seven or something. And we had gone to one of the high schools in my hometown to go to like a career fair or something.
And there wasn't really anyone talking about the music industry and I'm like, oh, maybe I can't do this. Maybe I need to think about, you know, quotations, real job to get.
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Hayley Marsten: And I
Rae Leigh: I'm just gonna wait for these birds to stop. Sorry.
Hayley Marsten: yeah, sorry. We have an aggressive Crow.
Rae Leigh: That's cool. We'll cut it up. Real job.
Hayley Marsten: yeah, so I was, yeah, my, we like thought I had to get a real job or something.
And when I, oh my God, let me just close the window
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Hayley Marsten: we have a poor tree and the crows come and try and attack it. And it's the same crows every time.
Rae Leigh: very loud. Aren't they? Sometimes I get like, we've got construction going next door. And they had, they were pouring concrete this morning and I was like, oh no, this is not going to work, but they're finished now. Thank goodness. So.
Hayley Marsten: Anyway, hang on. I think I just knocked my microphone. Yeah, so I felt like maybe I had to get a real job. And so when I went into high school, I this love of music and wanting to be a musician, wanting to write songs became almost like a shameful thing for me. And I didn't want to tell anybody because I thought they would say, oh, well, you'll never be able to do that.
Like, I, it was like the thought of people maybe saying no was too overwhelming for me to even talk about it. And I think I'm sorry that crow's gonna just keep going.
Rae Leigh: all right, that's fine. We'll just do it. It is what it is. It doesn't matter where in Australia. I completely identify with what you're saying. Like, I didn't tell anyone that I was a singer or songwriter and like, if they knew it was not on purpose, you know, like they'd find out about it. But I also say. Like subconsciously during class, like, I didn't mean to, I would just be humming and then I'd get in trouble. But it's, it is, it's a funny thing. Cause like when you have a dream, I don't know. I don't know if it's just maybe a generation or something, but like there was a thing around dreams and being realistic and apparently like, and it, and dreaming was bad.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah,
Rae Leigh: And like, I don't know where that came from.
Hayley Marsten: I think it's almost like the Australian. A horrible habit of us to have Paul tall poppy syndrome and just want to be like, oh, well, you'll never be able to do that sort of thing. And you know, I did grow up in a small town and I had heard people, you know, say that kind of stuff about other people who had, you know, had dreams and whatever.
And I didn't want to be on the receiving end of that. So I just didn't even give people the chance to support me. Cause I was too scared of them, you know, doing the opposite.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And yeah, we shouldn't shame people should be it. I think it's taken a long time. I feel like there is a little bit of more understanding. Maybe it's just because I'm hanging around more artists. I don't
Hayley Marsten: Yeah. I think it definitely changes when you surround yourself with people who actually is, you know, encourage you to have dreams and aspirations and all that kind of
Rae Leigh: Hm.
Hayley Marsten: But yeah, I think when, hi, sorry, I'm really taking a long way around to this. And so, When I was in year nine, my parents split up.
And so, you know, that was really difficult for me. I was an only child. I didn't have anybody else to sort of lean on. And so I was like, well, I guess I'm just gonna, I just sort of threw myself into music because I needed something to, I guess, support me emotionally in a way. And so I started doing a lot of musical theater. And I met a lot of really great friends through that. And I got a lot more confident. I was I went through like being really confident as a young child. And then as I came into high school, I was just incredibly shy. So, so shy around people, I didn't know. And so yeah, doing musical theater and I also had a really wonderful drama teacher who really encouraged me and.
You know, made me feel like I was good at this thing that I loved sort of drew me out of my shell. And I think
Rae Leigh: drama
Hayley Marsten: when I sort of. They are the best. My drama teacher, Mrs. Pitt actually ended up being in one of my music videos. So that was really special. But yeah, I sort of picked up songwriting again and I started playing guitar.
And this was also the time where Taylor swift had just released fearless, which was such a huge album for me. And I was learning. All the songs from her back catalog basically every afternoon after school. And yeah, I think it just sort of gave me something to look forward to and to aspire to be like, cause.
Most of my life and none of the bands that my friends listened to really wrote about stuff in such an honest way. So I just thought I was bad at songwriting cause I was like, oh, but I want to tell people this story. So yeah, I think definitely in high school I was like, I really love this and I, I don't know how I can not do that.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I wanna, I kind of want to go back to what you said about music supporting you emotionally, because honestly that's probably the core of this entire podcast birth is that music can support us in a way. Nothing else really can. I think, especially when we're going through an emotional crisis where we don't really know or have a vocabulary to understand what's going on within ourselves, within our bodies.
What was that process like for you and your parents separated and you turned to music, do you remember, or have you processed and much about like what that actually did for you and how that worked?
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, actually, I mean, in the past 12 months I have started going to therapy really regularly. And I think like exploring. A few things through that has really opened my eyes to how much that I have relied on music and my career in music. Both good and bad, you know, I'm sure everyone was having a horrible time last year.
Like let's not sugar coat it, but I found it really difficult because I had tied my self worth to being able to work. And I kind of, when all of my work got taken away, W a really horrible time for me. And yeah, I was probably, yeah, it a huge identity crisis. I don't think I've been in a worse place.
Rae Leigh: Sorry. Sorry to hear that. That's must've been really hard.
Hayley Marsten: Thanks. Yeah, no, it was really difficult, but I, yeah, so I started going to therapy and I sort of had to discuss, you know, why I put so much emphasis of who I am and my worth as a person on my ability to perform, to achieve in music. And I had a light bulb moment. One day when I was. around me.
Haven't always been there for me, but music always has, and it sounds so cheesy, but I've always been able to get some kind of you know, gratification or sense of worth or achievement through my music career. And so, yeah. I can tie certain parts of my career to the worst points in my life where I was literally the rays like me having a career in music was the reason I kept going.
And so I think it, yeah, it probably started when I was 14 and my parents were divorcing and I had no idea what to do. So I'm like, well, I need something to channel these frigging emotions into. And so. I think that's just been a habit for me from then. And obviously it's not always the healthiest thing.
And so I have worked on that, but I do really believe that having this outlet to express your emotions through songwriting is an incredible tool that I wish everyone could have somehow. Because like I always thought that, oh, you know, this song writing was therapeutic. I would always be like, oh, Until I wrote something that I'm like, holy shit.
That was very therapeutic.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Sometimes they don't make the best songs to sing in front of a crowd, but they're the best songs to see. When you're not feeling great and you sit at home and you're like, I just got to get it at someone I'm also doing a radio interview the other day. And someone said, oh, it's like a pressure valve.
Isn't it. I was like, that's the best word to say for me, it was like, I could feel the, feel, the pressure that builds up inside us emotionally for me, I definitely internalize a lot. And so that pressure really builds up. And then, yeah. To be able to just sit and let it out on a piano or guitar or musical instrument of choice. is. It's just like opening the pressure valve and going, oh, I can breathe. You know, like
Hayley Marsten: Yeah,
Rae Leigh: let it out and music doesn't let you down. Does it? No, that's right. Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: I think it is sort of, you know, having written and also gone to therapy. I feel like when you're writing you're revisiting an emotion and you're trying to process it, which is exactly what you do when you go to therapy. So I feel like I've sort of thrown away my notion of it being like a woo thing that songwriting is therapeutic because it is like, it is literally therapy.
Rae Leigh: Oh yeah.
Hayley Marsten: you're doing it honestly and authentic.
Rae Leigh: Oh, it saved my life. Absolutely. And it was never something like, I didn't share my love for music with anyone either, because I thought that I had this and it sounds weird when I say it out loud, but I believed that if people. Put me down and shamed me for it like you, or if they didn't like it, that I would lose my love for it or my passion, or like, and I would lose my pressure valve and.
And I've seen people do that. You know, they've gone and auditioned for Australian idol, or they would go to university and study music cause they loved it so much. And I've seen them come out of those experiences, hating music and really not wanting to do it anymore and being very aware. Seeing people go through it.
I'm like, you know, I can't afford to lose my pressure valve. I started to would probably kill myself if I didn't have music. So it took me a really long time to recognize that no one can actually take that away from me. He couldn't, no one can take my music away from me. It's something that I, and only I ever have full control over.
And it was only once I realized that much later in life that I was comfortable with sharing it with you.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, I think. It's more than just something that you have a dream for. I think it's something that you have to do if it's really, you know, ingrained into you. I don't think that it was an accident that I started writing songs when I was six. Like I think it was something I was supposed to do, whether it be as a career path or just something I did for myself.
I feel like
Rae Leigh: You were naturally drawn
Hayley Marsten: when it's in you like you and I it's just, you know, we're just going to do it probably.
Rae Leigh: And it's healthy. Like there's, you know, lots of people, we all deal with stuff like we all deal with divorce or abandonment or, you know, like we've all got our stuff. Like everyone's got stuff and we all deal with it in different ways. And I think the best thing about art in general is a creative form of expression, which is therapy, but it's a creative form of expression.
Doesn't have to be words of vocabulary and it allows you to get it out rather than keeping it in and pressing it down and suppressing it. You know, with drugs or alcohol or other forms of addiction and things that can maybe help numb the pain it's sometimes I think that's why art is so powerful. Is it because it gives us a way of getting it out of our bodies and out of ourselves and not having to hold it anymore.
I don't know if that makes sense.
Hayley Marsten: No, it totally makes sense. And I think like you said before, some songs you write and it's not really the easiest thing to sing in front of a crowd, and I've definitely written a lot of songs like that.
I thought, oh, maybe this is a bit too much and I shouldn't share this, but then kind of going the opposite route and being like, but it's so much that it might be something somebody else's so much and maybe, you know, they might feel less alone if they heard this song.
And I think that's why I was so drawn to songwriting because people were writing songs that I felt understood by listening. And so I think that's why I have written stuff that has been so honest because. I don't want people to feel. I don't mean that sounds so like, oh, I'm doing so much for the world, but like, I like the songs that have been really difficult for me to record have been the ones that I get the most messages about.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Cool. I find the opposite. I find the ones that I connect to the most people run from the most, but I don't know if yeah. Emotionally
Hayley Marsten: are emotionally
Rae Leigh: yeah. Well, that's, it's definitely probably a part of it. Like, people project onto you, no matter what, and if they're not dealing with their shit, then you know, they're not gonna be able to do with yours.
And I think like with me, one thing that's been hard because the thing that helped me get through with music was the child abuse and it's child sexual abuse. And that is not an acceptable topic for anyone to talk about. So, you know, it's not something that comes up over the dinner table. Right. And. Part of that actually makes the problem worse.
And so music like enabled me to express myself, but I have songs that are like, not metaphors, you know, there's songs of me just getting it out and saying, this is how crappy it is. And this is how it can be. And I've had enough, you know, and they're the ones. Probably, I don't know if I can have a record that, you know, it's like, and then I speak to people like, you know, saying what you say is like the most vulnerable ones are probably the ones that help people the most.
And I'm like, oh, maybe it would, but gosh, do I have to be the one to share that, you know,
Hayley Marsten: That's incredibly brave to write about that stuff. So like, I think you should, Canada's a victory that you've even written it and gotten it out. And you don't. I think
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Hayley Marsten: for me, like I, I've written about things that have been really upsetting to me and I've released them, but only because I thought that I could handle.
Both positive and negative things. And I think sometimes there's things that we experience and write about that nurses don't necessarily have to be given over to everybody else. You know, stuff that is incredibly personal, like what you're talking about. I, you know, I think it depends on how much of yourself you're willing to open up.
And it is a really scary and vulnerable to be like, here's the song that's so personal to me now. Love it or rip it to shreds.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And that is what happens with music, right? Like when you put something out there, it's like, oh, as an artist, if you are presenting your out to the world, AKA trying to monetize it because you want to keep doing it. That our job is essentially to be vulnerable and allow people to project their emotions onto what feels like us actually they're projected onto the art, but because we're so emotionally connected to the art, it feels like us.
And that they have to, it takes a very emotionally strong person to do that.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah it's kind of a weird contradiction because you have to be this incredibly vulnerable person to write all this music that is really honest and, you know, close to you as a person, and then put it out into the world. And suddenly not be that vulnerable person suddenly be this very even killed super confident person who doesn't care if people don't like it.
But I mean, I think everyone who is a performer, like at, in some way, at some point and on some level just wants people to like them because. That's basically performing and it's such a strange thing for your mental health to be like, okay, I'm going to do this job. And also part of this job is selling myself as a person.
And so I've been trying to explain this in therapy to my therapist to be like, and he was like, you know, I think maybe. We need to try and separate, you know, Haley as a person and Haley is a musician and I'm like, but I am the, that's the same. That's the same. So I think it is really confusing in that way.
And it does take a lot of it takes a lot of work to get okay at it. And I
Rae Leigh: wrong with the work though. it's good work, you know, and we can, we do a lot in our lives. And this is something I've recognized just by doing the work I've been doing. I don't even know how long I've been doing therapy before, but I've done a lot when I've needed it, but the more and more work I realize, the more things are in our world and in our society.
To avoid work the work, the emotional work, you know, there's so much that we've created to make us feel stable. And I think COVID has highlighted to a lot of people that maybe we're under that illusion, kind of like the matrix, you know, the blue pill or the red pill, like we've got, we have built this essentially form of a matrix of society that is stable and what is accepted and was not accepted and like, It's actually very inhumane, but I think for a lot of people, that's what they've done to avoid dealing and doing the work.
And I don't know, that's like, wow, that's such a big conspiracy theory. And now I sound like my mom. So I'm going to change the topic because we could go on for this forever and like it
Hayley Marsten: this is a therapy
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I feel like it. Yeah. Okay. So tell me about what it is you want, like you're sharing you with the world. Why, what do you want people to get out of that from your music? When you write, do you have a mission?
Hayley Marsten: I mean, I guess my. Highest hope and highest dream would be that when people listen to my music, which has been derived from, I mean, if you look at my albums, spectacular heartbreak, I mean, there's no real prize for guessing. I wrote it about a breakup, but I I guess with that, I really hoped that people who might've been in a similar situation feeling very alone and Confused and overwhelmed would maybe feel a little bit less of all of those things, because, you know, I had been there too, and I had written about it and you know, you're not the only person who's ever been broken up with over the phone and had a really shit time afterwards.
But yeah, I think I just, I recently, you know, writing, I've been writing new music and there's been stuff that I'm like, Ooh, I dunno. She'd write about that or share this. And then I think about who I was when I was 19 or 18, sorry, and who I would have wanted to look up to and who I, what I would have liked to have heard from the people I followed, who were making music. And so I guess I kind of want to be the person I wish I had to say. To speak, frankly, about mental health about, you know, setting boundaries as a young woman and how to look after yourself and all of those things. I'm obviously not a perfect person in any respect, but I think
Rae Leigh: be
Hayley Marsten: I think, yeah, I just want to write about things that I would have liked to hear from people I respected and looked up to when I was.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: teens, early twenties.
Rae Leigh: I love that. I think I'm I have a very similar feeling. It's like just, I think, I feel like I spent a lot of energy when I was younger, trying to find someone that would tell me that everything was going to be okay. And that they knew what I'd been through or like they'd experienced something similar.
And they're going to be okay. And the only thing that I could find, and I'm a researcher like this is what I do. I researched a lot. And the only stuff I could find was written up paperworks from psychologists who had case studies of people with similar experiences to me, and they're all addicts or had alcohol issues or abuse issues.
And like, you know, there wasn't any stories out there of people who survived.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: that were doing okay. And that they got through it, they faced it, they dealt with it and they're actually stronger because of it. And that I think that's the same thing. Like, I'm okay, how do I share my story?
So that someone out there who has experienced it, like the same thing, they can find my story and be inspired that I'm okay. And they're going to be okay as well.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, exactly. I think that's a great mantra to have yeah.
Rae Leigh: That's good. I love it. That's awesome. And if you have that, like, it doesn't matter what anyone does. Like that's going to keep you so strong to, you know, go and be courageous and bold about the songs that you write and the performances that you give, because that's a strong, deep passion and mission to like, you obviously have a huge heart and that's just beautiful.
Hayley Marsten: Thank you.
Rae Leigh: All right. Tell me more about co-writing and your development as an artist. Because you know, we met at the dag, which is where we do a fair bit of code writing. What's been your journey of, like stepping into this world and co-writing and producing. And how have you got to where you are now?
Hayley Marsten: I think sometimes I have just sort of fallen into things and been like, oh, I guess this is where I should go now. Cause I had never co-written before I actually went to the dag that first time when we met I had always written alone. At that point. I also was very young. I think I might've actually still been, I might've been 19.
Maybe I was 20 and I was very unsure of myself and I felt very overwhelmed at the thought of getting into a room with somebody else and having to bare my soul to them because I didn't want to write about something that I hadn't been through. And so it felt really scary. And the,
Rae Leigh: when you put it that way. Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: I'm very dramatic. I think the ag was the perfect place to do that because, you know, everybody there is so lovely and supportive. And so I think to have that as my first car riding experience was a really special and sort of eased me into it. But even going forward, like fast forwarding, I suppose, to riding for spectacular heartbreak.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Hayley Marsten: Because I knew that most of the songs I was going to write were going to be pretty personal. And I felt like I needed to kind of talk about what happens that they could be on the same page as me. I didn't want to write with anyone that I didn't know personally. So, in this wonderful way, I got to write my debut album with people that I'm actually very close friends with, who I would say.
Outside of the writing room anyway, and most of them already knew what had happened and, you know, I didn't have to just go in and be like, hi stranger, let me tell you about my life. So that was a really wonderful way to do it, but I think, you know, more recently I have been a little bit more confident into going into co-writes that with people that I don't know And sort of just being, I guess, brave enough to open up to people that I'm not like super close friends with, because I think what I've found is that everybody has some kind of vulnerability deep down.
And if the, I think if you're the first to show it, then the other person will just. You know, jump right in and be there with you because you've shown them that it's a safe place. So I think songwriting is a really beautiful practice of cutting through the bullshit and just being like, look, this is how I'm really doing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: I think it's a great equalizer and I don't think there's any other kind of art form. You can really be that like, that is such a collaborative thing on such an emotional level. And I think it's really special and exciting that we get to do that.
Rae Leigh: It's true, isn't it? Like art is a very individual thing. But when we get to collaborate with other people, it's there's a level of connection, which is why trust, but like, there is a, there's a level of intimacy that, that comes with it. And I've definitely been in some co-writes where I'm like, I don't like this person.
They don't make me feel good, but the song's great, you know? And so that can make it really hard because you want the song to be great. But at the same time, it's tainted by this experience with the person. So, everything goes into it with,
Hayley Marsten: If I'm in a co-write with someone that I really detest, I'm like I'm out. See ya.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: They have to be a really terrible person for me to do that.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And I think I have too much compassion for people. Like I've really only ever had one really bad car right. Where, like, I just wanted to walk out, but it was at like a retreat, like a professional retreat. So it's like, you can't, you know, it's, that would be even more awkward and I'd have to face the fact that I'd been vocal about my feelings.
But I also had compassion that the person was just very distracted on the day. Right. I think wasn't actually being aware of other people. Yeah. You know, like they were just really self absorbed
Hayley Marsten: they were maybe not a terrible person.
Rae Leigh: yeah, it was just the feeling of being invisible, I guess, in a co-write, which is not nice.
Hayley Marsten: No.
Rae Leigh: But yeah, it, and sorry, I think it was circumstantial. And so I did be quiet, but at the same time it made me really not like the song, but later on, I've looked at the song and I'm like, oh, that's actually a really good song, but it reminds. Feeling bad during the co-write and I'm like, I'm torn into anyway, I'm questioning around.
Because you mentioned with spectacular heartbreak that you co-wrote with people that, you know, I'd love to know who you co-wrote with, if you're willing to share, but also that experience of what you went through and what inspired this. Are you willing to share a little bit more about where it came from?
Hayley Marsten: I have spoken about it for two years and it is not a subtle album. I'm sure these people know it's about. So, yeah, spectacular heartbreak. I wrote over the course of two years and I conveniently went through two quite influential breakups. I didn't, I'm not like I was never a serial dater, just.
It happened accidentally? I guess I think also at this point in time, I was like, oh, I guess, I guess I'm dating this person now, like low, what can you do? I think I wasn't that young, but I felt, it feels very young looking back. And so, yeah, it was. I was living alone for the first time in my life. As a young woman, I had gone through this, these two breakups that had really affected me.
And I think I just, didn't really know what to do with all the emotions, because I felt like for most of my life you know, with traumatic things that had happened to me, I just picked up and kept going and. You know, I'll just carry on and I'll just, you know, I'll show them like, I'll show them that they've made a mistake.
And I think I'd gotten to a point where I was like, I actually just can't do that anymore. I'm actually just really upset. And I'm just really sad. And so I did a lot of processing of that and I wrote a lot of the record by myself first. And then I took songs to people that I felt like were good, but I just couldn't make them shine.
And so, I wrote. With one of my best friends, two songs, and he's in my band now, Karen Stevenson, who's an incredible pop artist. We wrote the title track together and a song called call it a day. I wrote with Brad butcher, a song called red wine white dress. I wrote with Lynn Votel on a song called Wendy.
I wrote with another one of my band members, Byron short on crying your beer, which was like the sassy really from the sadness. I say like, it's a sad album. It doesn't, I don't think it plays like a sad album. I think there's a lot of joy in there.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Hayley Marsten: And and then I wrote a song called grocery line with our good friend melody MoCo
Rae Leigh: Yay. Grocery line. Cool.
Hayley Marsten: So I think it was a really great experience too. You know, really be in the driver's seat and just choose who I wanted to share these songs with. And also keep some for myself, but I think. I was a bit, I don't know if I was naive or just incredibly brash and brave when this record came out and I just came, I just was like, yeah, I wrote it about two breakups.
Oh fuck. I mean, I was going to sway with it. I also wrote with my very good friend imaging clock on a song could hit your wagon, speaking of brash and brave. I, yeah, so I came out and said, you know, I've written it about two breakups were who? And. I think obviously being a woman and writing about your feelings, there is a certain degree of criticism that comes with that.
Sometimes I think after the absolute, just like obliteration of Taylor, Swift's dating life for most of her career, it's sort of just, you know, the go-to joke is like, oh, aren't you scared that no one will date you? And I'm like, not really
Rae Leigh: Yeah, no, one's going to take you cause you're gonna write an album about it.
Hayley Marsten: yeah. It's a great album. Why wouldn't you want to date me? But I think the thing that really got to me was people saying, oh, you know, like, but it's good, right? Because they've given you this album and I'm like, well, actually I gave my self that album because of my hard work and determination. So.
Rae Leigh: Yes, you have all done
Hayley Marsten: it was a very animo emotional time and it's a bit emotional, you know, leaving that record behind and moving on to new things as well.
Rae Leigh: good therapy though.
Hayley Marsten: Yes,
Rae Leigh: And you know, the next one I can imagine will be an empowerment. One of, I don't need a man and no, I don't know.
Hayley Marsten: my boyfriend goodbye.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I dumped you this time.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, maybe I will break up with him just, no, I'm not going to nuts. I can see the headline
Rae Leigh: Yeah, no, the Australian version of Taylor swift. There we go. Here we go. Cause she definitely did that. She had some where she's like not, you know, I'm in control now and you're just a game I'm playing anyway. Tell me what the best experience or best advice is that you've ever been given in this industry.
Hayley Marsten: I think something that's always stuck with me is I was actually at the DAG and I had written this song called coming home about my parents' divorce actually. And yeah. Really hoping that I would get to write it with Lynn Botel and at the dag, they just draw names out of the hat and she, the universe smiled upon us and she drew my name out.
And so we were in the room. I know I kind of laid all this stuff, bare to her about, you know, how I was feeling and why I'd written this and all that kind of stuff. And we were going, cause I had written the whole song basically. And she just went through and like, Picked out the stuff. And she was like, well, you're not, you don't really want to say this.
What you want to say is this. So you're already going to a very vulnerable place. Why don't we just go all the way, because that's, what's going to make this a great song. And I think, yeah, just keeping that in mind to be like, I'm already here, I'm already writing the song. Why am I going to try and sugarcoat it?
Like I might as well just make it as honest as possible. And I do think that in the times where I've done that. That's when those songs have really become something that when they've been released painful, have just gravitated to so much and unrelated to so much because, you know, if I had just sugarcoated, if I had sugarcoated any of the songs on spectacular heartbreak, it would have come across as the most inauthentic, weird breakup album ever.
Rae Leigh: I'm glad that you had that. And I completely agree with her. I think it's, if you're going to go there. Like feel it and feel it hard. Just you you don't get through like, even just treating it like therapy, you know, you don't get through it by just looking at the iceberg. You've got to kind of the tip of it.
You've got to look at the deepest stuff and break it down bit by bit. And as you take off the tip of the iceberg, the rest of it, the stuff under the surface just rises to the top.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, exactly. And I think that. Why bother if it's going to be something half baked, like just do it. You don't have to release it. You don't have to show it to anybody. You could just do it for you and then come back to it later and decide.
Rae Leigh: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I've had songs that I sat on for years and years, any of these. And I mean, I wasn't sharing them with anyone. They were never written to be shared, but then once I did share them, it was the right time, you know, and you can write something and it might not be the right time when you've written it, but maybe after you've healed from whatever it is, you write.
You might be in a better space to be able to share that, and then it might help someone who's still in those moments.
Hayley Marsten: absolutely. I think I like there's a lot of songs on spectacular heartbreak that I had written a really long time ago. There's one in particular that I wrote. It's not an emotional song at all. It was more like a seductive, sexy thing. And I was, I loved it. But I was like, I can never write it.
I mean, I can never record this. I'm not sexy, but it was, I just was a confidence thing for sure. Like you can do whatever you want. And I also didn't want to ask to have it. So I'm like, well, I guess I'm going to have to just,
Rae Leigh: do you think you're not sexy?
Hayley Marsten: I don't know. I think there's this weird now fed two young women that you can't be confident because you're up yourself.
And so I.
Rae Leigh: cause that makes you a slut,
Hayley Marsten: Yeah exactly. And so I was, so
Rae Leigh: the way. Just so people it's just bullshit.
Hayley Marsten: Absolute bullshit. But I had just bought into that narrative so much and I was so afraid of people yeah. Calling me a slot or whatever else. That I didn't wanna, I didn't want to own my sexuality. I thought it was a bad thing. I thought.
That you know, outwardly saying that, you know, yes, I could go up to a man in a bar and you know, flirt with him. That was like a dirty, bad thing to do when I had written a whole album about the fact that I had two boyfriends who somewhere he liked me.
Rae Leigh: You would have two boyfriends at the same time.
Hayley Marsten: Not at the
Rae Leigh: Not that there's anything wrong with it, but right. But like it is it's It is something that all women like we've had that, you know, thrust on us that you've got to be this and that. And like, like we've got to fit into that. It's exhausting.
And the reality is. Sex is an amazing thing. Like I grew up in the church and like, sex is bad, you know, like this is just, it's just bad and you don't do it. You don't talk about it and building like, then you see people get married and it's like, sex is still bad. It's like, actually, no sex is an amazing gift that we are given as human beings that is there to be enjoyed in a safe, healthy way.
But we don't talk about the safety stuff because there's so much focus on the bad stuff. And like,
Hayley Marsten: I could talk about this a lot. But that's
Rae Leigh: I got to start it. I got to set a new podcast, I reckon. Cause I get into this topic way too often.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, but I, 100% agree with you. I think, you know, as a woman you're supposed to be this you know, innocent virginal person, who's untouched by men, but also you have to know, you have to be the greatest in bed and like, it's just impossible, crossroads. Like you just, you can't be everything.
And I think
Rae Leigh: They want a lady on the streets and a freak in the bed. Isn't that the lyrics,
Hayley Marsten: That's exactly right. Yeah, exactly.
Rae Leigh: It's crazy. And it's just insane, but you know, it's only once we start to realize that those things that have been fed into us are insane and complete, like just lies that we can start to realize it's okay to just be here.
And enjoy life and enjoy the journey of not knowing, because that is what we're all doing. All right. What about your favorite co-writing experience? If you could curl up with anyone in the world, who would it be dead or alive?
Hayley Marsten: So my favorite co-writing experience that I've had or who I would want to co-write with.
Rae Leigh: That's a good point. Actually, you can. Well, it's probably going to be unfair to all your co-writes to pick one favorite.
Hayley Marsten: I did think of onsite.
Rae Leigh: oh, did you?
Hayley Marsten: say all of my, like all except one of my co-running experiences have been absolutely amazing.
Rae Leigh: What made this one? Particular one? Really good. Tell me.
Hayley Marsten: I, so. It wasn't as such better. It was just so much, it was so easy. The song that I almost gone, hierarchy a hitch, your wagon, a song I wrote with image and cluck was I had written like the hook line and that was about it.
Some of the chorus. And we wrote it in like 15 minutes or something. It was just so easy. It was like, We were just both on the same page so much that it was just like one mind. Imaging is also one of my best friends. So I think that probably fed into it. But I think a lot of my car rights had been like that recently where I just am writing with people who I understand how their brain works so well that we can just, it just like a, it's like a magical experience almost. But if I could write with anybody in the world it would 100% be Taylor swift, but I probably would be too overwhelmed to write with her. And I would like cry or something like I'm such, I'm a very embarrassing person when it comes to. Seeing people that I admire, even from afar, let alone meeting them.
I'm not a cool person. I'm not like a, I'm not easy breezy. Beautiful. I'm a mess. So I recently saw the Veronica is in a store in Brunswick heads and I freaked. So much. And I was wearing like my togs and I was like, oh my God, I can't. My boyfriend was with me and I like walked up to him and I'm like, don't please, please don't make a scene.
But the Veronica's are in this store. And I'm like, I was so overwhelmed. And he was like, why don't you just go up and say that you're a fan. I'm like, no, I can't look at me. I look like a troll. I can't go and meet them like this. I want them to think I'm cool. They're not what do you think?
And I just, in my brain, obviously I meet someone they're like, oh, she S she seems cool. Look at her cool outfit. Let's be friends. And so, yeah, we had to leave because I'm like, this is too much. I remember going to a Taylor swift concert and she came out into the audience and I was like two people away from her.
And I cried. And I was like, this is not the person I thought I was a, I'm an uncool person as it turns out.
Rae Leigh: I don't think that makes you
Hayley Marsten: a hundred percent okay. With
Rae Leigh: that obviously there's something in there that it it connects with you deeply about possibly being seen. And there's nothing wrong with that. So human it's so human and I have that. No, probably not with like, like Taylor swift. I'd probably be like, Hey, yeah, let's write a song.
But I have like this weird affinity with people in authority. The prime minister or a priest at a church or something like people who I feel like I'm going to waste their time or like their time is super precious because they're really important people. I've definitely had a complex with that, that I've had to work through.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Hayley Marsten: I think when you're an anxious person, I'm like, I'm wasting everyone's time.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Like you're not as good as everyone else in your, like a waste of space. That's the, that's what goes through my head. I'm not projecting. You're not you. That's those are the thoughts of like, I'm not good enough or I'm a waste of space or I'm a burden on people. And like, I'm not as, I'm not as important as everyone else.
And it's like that once you start to verbalize it, like I'm doing now, which I never used to be able to do, then I can go actually. That's not true. I'm just as important as everyone else. We're all human. We're all equal. We all poop and need to shower and all that sort of stuff. So like, there's a certain level of, once you start doing therapy and you talking things through and you get it out loud, you're like, yeah.
Right. We're all the same. We're all people. And we're all dealing with stuff. And life is about living in connecting with each other. It's pretty
Hayley Marsten: Yeah. And I think sometimes when you say those, you know, we'd internal thoughts out loud, you're like, that's such a dumb thing to say, like it's so silly.
Rae Leigh: it makes so much more sense if it's not said it's in your head and that's the thing with thoughts, it's like, they're actually really toxic if we don't get them out. And that's why like, having shame around saying stuff like we were talking about earlier or shame around a belief or a dream that we have Then we can't like, there's so much power in our words and to be able to get things out.
And that's why therapy so great because it's confidential and it's a safe space and you're paying someone essentially to be a good friend. Who's going to keep your secrets. It sucks, but. Well, sometimes we need that level of security knowing that this person is professionally trained to deal with my bullshit.
And I can tell them that I am insane and I have a desire to eat toothpaste all day long, and they're not going to shame me for it. You know? Like, do you know what I mean? I can say whatever I want and whatever is actually going through my head. And then it's not until I say it that it's like, oh, actually I don't need someone to tell me that stupid.
You know, it's just that's what it's there for. Absolutely. No shame in that. So, I'm glad that you've been seeing someone and that you've been getting help and you've obviously grown a lot and it shows by your ability to sing about it and talk about it. That's good.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah. I think I feel when I started therapy, my therapist was like, just so you know, I like. By the end of our sessions, your personality will probably be completely different. And I was like, I don't want that. I don't. I like who I am as a person. And now I look back I'm like, you silly girl, you didn't want that.
You don't want to internalize this shit, man. Like, I feel like I have grown. I feel so much older than I did last year.
Rae Leigh: that's a good line.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah. So hopefully it doesn't show on my face if just in my brain.
Rae Leigh: Emotional maturity is always a really good goal.
Hayley Marsten: Yeah, absolutely.
Rae Leigh: Cool. So tell me now that we've kind of finished the song writing slash Brandon catch out that we've just had
Hayley Marsten: We've covered. We've actually covered all the topics
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I feel like we've had a really good though. I think it's a good conversation to have and more people should have conversations like this. Absolutely. What are you doing with your music next? I'm going to put all your socials and tags and everything that people can connect to your music and you as a person, as an artist in the blog and in the description of this podcast.
But tell us what's coming up next for you. What are your goals for the next six, 12?
Hayley Marsten: So at the moment I don't know when this is going to come out, but we're in June right now. And the last song from my AP spectacular is coming out in two weeks on the 15th of June on my birthday. And That's kind of going to be the last little thing that I do with this record, spectacular heartbreak.
The reason that I did this little EPS, because I needed a bit more time, I guess, to say goodbye. I had a very different 2020 in mine after how successful the record was. And so I felt like I didn't really get to celebrate it as much as possible because. After the record came out, like I recorded it and released it in 12 weeks, which is absolutely bananas in itself.
And then after it came out, I was just on the road for four months. And so I didn't really have any time to just kind of sit back and Just be like, wow, I did it. And so this EAP has kind of been like a thank you to all the people who supported the record. Cause it was crowdfunded and just, I guess a way for us to be like, yay, look at this thing that we've done.
And also to get to revisit the songs that were filled with so much pain and sadness at times for me, when I recorded them now almost three years on is. Really emotional. And I really did feel like it was a spectacular celebration of that record. So the last one is spectacular heartbreak and it is 100% my favorite version from the AP.
And then I have brand new music coming out. So that's kind of another emotional thing to be like the end of an era and the start of a new one.
Rae Leigh: That's the lifecycle of being an artist. I
Hayley Marsten: Yeah. Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Do you have any shows planned for the single release or?
Hayley Marsten: So we, I haven't announced it. I don't know when will this come out? I'm
Rae Leigh: be in about a month. So we usually around three, four weeks behind, unless there's a specific date that someone's after, but.
Hayley Marsten: Okay. No, that's fine. So I will be doing two songwriters shows in Brisbane. Brisbane and the gold karst at the start of July through my right, like a girl series, which is a songwriting round that I run with Sarah late. And we just put together a bunch of really amazing female songwriters and just make a safe space for people to talk about their inspirations and the stories behind the songs.
And also just give people who are coming to those shows a real insight into these wonderful songs and how they came to.
Rae Leigh: Amazing. I've never heard of it. So I'm going to have to check that out. That sounds like fun.
Hayley Marsten: it's going to be good.
Rae Leigh: Cool. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for joining me and I'm sure I'll see you around and I'm going to come to write like a girl, cause that sounds like my jam. Although
Hayley Marsten: the door.
Rae Leigh: the eight. But yeah, thank you so much.
And I'll let you know when it's ready to come out, but is there anything else that you'd like to say before we finish?
Hayley Marsten: I think that's it. I don't know when the next, when the new stuff's coming out, so I'm not going to say it because I'll probably change my mind.
Rae Leigh: Sure. Don't no
Hayley Marsten: I'll just keep it vague
Rae Leigh: It'll be on the website. It'll be on the website.
Hayley Marsten: but yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This is such a beautiful chat and I really it's. Yeah, I think it's so wonderful to have these really. I guess, vulnerable chats with people. I don't think that a lot of people will usually have them. So I think it's really great what you're doing, talking to people in this sort of space, where they are really open. They're talking about their art. I think it's great for it to be out there so that other people can hear this and be inspired to have similar conversations with their friends.
So like just well done.
Rae Leigh: I hope it is inspiring for people. And I sometimes see it as it's like a therapy session, but there's like it's recorded and then publish. So,
Hayley Marsten: worst nightmare.
Rae Leigh: but no it's it's been really good and I'm just enjoying the journey and it's got a mind of its own this stuff, but hopefully it's doing some good work out there, so yeah.
Thank you very much for being a part of it. It's been a good chat.
Hayley Marsten: Anytime
