#157 Jess Chalker
It's hard yakka, the Aussie artist says living in London, but it can be done. Jess shares in this podcast about her journey to the UK as an Australian artist and how she feels about following your own path when it comes to your songwriting and artist journey.
Jess Chalker is an Australian-born songwriter and artist living in London UK. Musically, she hails from humble roots as one of YouTube’s first ever viral artists, with over 1.5m views on her self-penned songs. She went on to front Australian new-wave duo, We Are The Brave, whose grassroots hits ‘Your Ghost’ and ‘Sparrow’ achieved close to a million streams across YouTube, Soundcloud and Spotify. She is now embarking on a bold new solo career and announces her emotive, self-reflective debut full-length album, “Hemispheres”, to be released on 5th November 2021 via her own imprint 528 Records. The album is supported by the Australian Government through Australia Council for the Arts.
Jess’ musical journey to date has been rich and varied: on leaving We are the Brave, she traversed three continents as a songwriter and producer, her writing talents earning her a Grammy credit and taking her from Sydney, to LA and London as a much sought-after collaborator. Artists Jess has worked with include Sam Fischer, Tate McRae, Isamachine, Gold Kimono, Passenger, Hotei, Glen Matlock, Guy Sebastian, John Alagia (John Mayer) and many more. Jess earned her Grammy status in 2018, when she co-penned “Say Hello”, the single that helped Lisa Loeb win Best Kids Record for Feel What U Feel. Along with Florence + the Machine’s Isabella Summers, Jess was recently commissioned by Amazon Original to create an original composition for the show, Panic. The song, “Darkest Hour” (performed by Tate McRae) was later held in consideration for an Emmy nomination.
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Transcript
Rae Leigh: Welcome to a songwriter truce with Jess Chalker thanks for joining me.
Jess Chalker: Thanks so much for having me, Ray, it's really great to speak to you
Rae Leigh: you too. And you are all the way in London, but you're from Australia. Tell me how did that happen for you?
Jess Chalker: I am I'm so originally I'm from Sydney. But my husband was offered a job over, in the UK. So we packed up our life in 2018 and brought everything, our whole house and our cats and everything across here. And we've been here ever since.
Rae Leigh: How did the Cats travel ?
Jess Chalker: They have tracked, they have official travel documents, so they, you know, yeah.
Rae Leigh: Like a little cat passport.
Jess Chalker: exactly. International jets, jet setters. I was really worried. Action.
To be honest with you. I was very worried about them. They were on a different flight. So my husband traveled a couple of weeks ahead of me cause I had a big project in Sydney and I needed to finish up. And then the cat's sort of traveled in between us.
So they were, I was tracking the flight. I didn't track my husband's wife checked my cats. So they went to Singapore. Then they went to Dubai and they landed in London. So I was, and you have no idea as to whether they're fine, you know, if they're going to make friends. So I was. Yeah, panic and put that forth.
Fortunately, they're absolutely fine. They're a little jet lagged,
Rae Leigh: yeah. yeah.
Jess Chalker: but they were fun.
Rae Leigh: Glad to hear it. Very interesting actually, cause I don't think I've ever talked to anyone. Who's had to relocate their cats.
So good to know, little side note. All right. Well, let's talk about you and let's go back to the beginning. Tell us how did you become a songwriter? Where does that start for you?
Jess Chalker: Why did I become a songwriter? I mean, I always dabbled around when I was a kid, but I never thought anything I did was particularly in a good and I used to just write, write
jokes with my brother. It was, it was, it was mostly to make fun of my sister. But when I was at uni. Prior to my time at uni I'd, I'd lived in, I'd actually lived in London once before.
I did a thought working holiday thing. And during that time, my husband and I hadn't, I would just boyfriend and girlfriend at that stayed note. We'd been together for a few years. He heard me singing, encouraged me to go and get singing lessons. And anyway, it was a few years of then me kind of working out, oh, I'm kind of musical.
Went to university, Sydney, did a bachelor of arts and then started taking some.
Electives and was accepted into a performing arts course there, which sort of opened up my whole world. And I started hanging around with musicians and songwriters and, and started painting a few of my own tunes and uploading them to youTube and YouTube at the time was just, it was like 2009 or something was just kind of getting getting warmed up and, Sort of sharing the songs around.
So I guess it all started from there. I'd hadn't, you know, had had an, a bidder to anyone that I sang and wrote songs was uploading them to YouTube and then it'll kind of stuck from that point.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I can relate to not telling anyone that you sing or play music.
Jess Chalker: Oh
Rae Leigh: a very personal, intimate thing. Yeah, no, I, no one knew
Jess Chalker: Really? No one
Rae Leigh: long time, I was a bedroom warrior for a long time.
What, what changed bedroom
warrior? Yeah, like I would, I would, I would sit in my bedroom.
and when, if I knew that like no one was listening, I would like play my guitar or play my piano and write songs and let all my feelings out onto my music page.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. I understand that. Cause I think, I think I was much the same. It is. It's a way of, you know, I found it a very expressive, therapeutic thing to do on my own. It wasn't something I was super interested in sharing with other people for the longest
Rae Leigh: No God, no. Like how vulnerable and scary was the even the thought of sharing anything that was written in, in any way. So like, yeah, I completely relate to that. That was the most successful moment of my life was my first ever open mic because I was so petrified,
Jess Chalker: Oh, what did she do?
Rae Leigh: you know? Oh, just to like a Palm beach in, I'd been to Nashville.
I did like one song there, but I had like a comedy song, which I kind of hid behind And I just started no one day. After Nashville. I was like, I have to do this. And I went to an open mic down in Palm beach and breathing deeply and just saying a few songs and then run away really quickly.
Jess Chalker: I think I've been like that to so great. And anyone who's kind of going through what
we went through.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Oh, that's good for that.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. Being terrified to expect. So I think, I wish there were more of them around, I, I don't know what it's
like, where you are. I don't know. I don't see so many of them, especially after the pandemic, I think everything's getting
back to normal, but at the same with me actually, like I remember my first open mic night and I played a song on piano that I wrote and I was shaking it at the
cable and I had, it was such a support supportive
space.
And, you know, you just keep going
back and back. The more like you feel, the more you gives you a little bit
of confidence to keep
going.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. It's like, it's like 10 other people and they're all feeling it, you know, that they want the same thing for you and they're there to share their songs and they're scared as well. And so it is a very safe and supportive environment and it's, it's perfect to work on the performance side of being a songwriter and an artist.
Unfortunately the first songwriting, that the, that first night that I went to there was a wedding rehearsal at that. That that night. And there was like 300 people in this pub and I didn't know that that's not normal and I I'd worked myself off. I'm like, I'm going to go, I'm going to sing. I'm going.
to do it. I have to do this. And so like, I just did it. And I, if I had of known that that was not a normal open mic night crowd, like there's no way I would have done.
Jess Chalker: Oh, my goodness. Wow.
Rae Leigh: So I relate, I relate to the whole, like, you know, writing songs and it's a way of therapy and getting it out. But you didn't do the, we did you do the different, Michael?
Did you, do you do straight to YouTube?
Jess Chalker: I think I might've done the open mic night first, actually. Then I think I did YouTube after that. So there was people in my, in my music. Sort of knew we were having to perform sort of cover songs and learn to how to perform. But I think it wasn't until halfway through that class that I started writing.
And then after the, the open market started putting them on
YouTube. So yeah, it was a night, it was a night in Sydney, super famous night called Wu jam and yeah, lots of, lots of, lots of people started
out there. I think, I think, Matt Corby also met Colby also, you know, I don't know if he did the open mics, but he definitely played a few gigs there.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Fair enough. Okay, so, so you started putting on YouTube. What, what was the process behind that? Like, well, what happened from there.
Jess Chalker: I got a new Mac and I remember it had this video recording software on it. I didn't even know how to use doors at that point. And I just started, you know, writing songs and recording them into this like video software, and then uploading them to YouTube. From there. There wasn't really any, it was, it was pretty spontaneous.
It wasn't really any much strategy behind it. It was just, it just, I let see how these songs go and what people think. And, and it was also a way of me. Being able to see what resonated with people and how to, have a ride better. I almost, I think I almost sort of taught myself songwriting in a way from, from uploading to YouTube and through those, those little
videos I did, and my songs sort of started, I got, gradually better, I think anyway, or maybe worse.
Rae Leigh: I think that's the goal, isn't it just like someone told me once, like your song should always be like, at least 1% better than the last. And if it's 1% worse, maybe don't really see it, but that was their advice.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah, I, I think you, I mean, we always, as somewhat as don't, we, we always want to, we want to improve and I last thing, so it's not always really easy to do. Sometimes you just write something that seems. Sometimes divined that doesn't, you don't even know where it comes from. and then you try always trying to beat that thing.
I mean, I, I definitely fell into, but I did struggle a little bit. I remember one of the songs that I wrote on YouTube was called set the range for the seed ended up being quite low, going viral on, on YouTube. And after, after that happened, I mean, a lot of opportunities came my way, but I did, I did go through a period of writer's block after that, because I was trying my best to beat that.
And I didn't know where that had come from.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, right.
Jess Chalker: mean, that can also happen too. Yeah,
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I've had that experience. I have a song that, I say I didn't write it. I sang it because I literally was just trying to work out how to use my doors. And, I sang this song and it came out exactly pretty much how it's released.
So like, you know what I mean? Like that, that divine feeling I get that he's like, I don't feel like he can take credit for it.
Jess Chalker: Yeah, I think. this is something quite
magical about that. And I think most songwriters have, you know, you've experienced it, I've experienced it, these things, instances where things just
channel out of you. And it's a, it's a lovely feeling. Because it does make you feel like that.
Even if you're not a spiritual person, it does make you feel slightly that's something spiritual has occurred. I find that that's my favorite. Creative state is if I can get into that, but that channeling mode, it sounds a bit kooky, but it's it's
really, I mean, in terms of like, it's like, it's a it's a creative, it's a creative flow where you're, it's almost like meditation where you're just so focused and you're so kind of in the moment of, of creation that you're just, you know, you're channeling whatever's
coming through you rather than try to try to overthink things or, be too analytical or.
Rae Leigh: I like to think that it's my inner child, like that date consciousness within my body. It doesn't often get a voice because it's so suppressed by, you know, the world and society and responsibility and all that other stuff. That's just my reasoning, you know, it's like that in a child having a voice,
Jess Chalker: Ah, I think definitely, whether it's you're in a child or
whatever it is.
Rae Leigh: whatever it is.
Jess Chalker: that that thing that's just coming out and that needs to be it's that voice inside you, that you are suppressing and that needs to be heard. I mean, I don't know about you. I, I, don't always like to be.
Autobiographically because there's only so much content as a happily married person. I feel, that I am reaching for, I do really like to try and come up with stories that, and I, and I, and that I think is really interesting because whether or not that's coming from my, in
my inner voice or, you know, I don't know.
I don't know
Rae Leigh: Do you find
Jess Chalker: slash novelist
Rae Leigh: Do you find you're you're a very observant person there. Like I'll, you know, I do a bit of people watching and I quite enjoy it, you know, go on a public train, just so I can like, listen in on people's conversations, not in a creepy way, but like, I don't know. I find it really interesting and I get a lot
of content from that.
Jess Chalker: definitely. I think, I think being really aware of the world around you, I know, you know what you mean might not be increasing. It's not.
Rae Leigh: just always listen to.
Jess Chalker: yeah. You're always just sort of aware and in the
moment, definitely I derive a lot of, you know, content and inspiration from that. I think the locks downs during COVID have been really hard for me.
And maybe I don't know about you, but a lot of creative people wish we felt this intense pressure to be prolific and to be creating, but then not being inspired by the real world. I found that really difficult.
Rae Leigh: There were a few songs and groups that even came out from it. And I just sort of, I kind of got over the lockdown song. Here's my isolation song.
Here's my
Jess Chalker: yeah.
Rae Leigh: And I was like, okay, like that is people taking, I guess, inspiration from a bad situation. But,
Jess Chalker: yeah. I mean, there's nothing wrong with that, but it did. It's a good feel. It did start to feel a little bit like, yeah,
I know what you mean.
Rae Leigh: I was depressed. I had some people telling me that like Jesus was coming back and we'll, you know there's be apocalypse was happening. And like, I dunno, and it was pretty crazy at the start, especially,
Jess Chalker: Yeah. I mean, it's still, I think the
division, that it's sort of caused and is quite worrying. I think people have, um, people are coached with this pendant and convert
really interesting
ways.
Rae Leigh: How's it going over there? Cause you guys are kind of fully opened up. Now you can travel again.
Different to what we're dealing with here at the moment.
Jess Chalker: yeah, I think w we were, well, where are we with this 21st of October? We've been told we're not going into another lockdown though. We've got cases that are going up and up. I'm not sure. I think, I think, I mean, the cadence. May seeing my friends has changed a lot, even though we're all out of lockdown and we're technically allowed to see each other.
I think people are just more conscious of going out and seeing
people, which is fair enough, I guess. But also it's a bit sad. The life there's, there's a, there's a new normal that we're all sort of getting used to now. What about what, what's it like in Queensland,
Rae Leigh: I mean, well, we haven't had COVID for 15 days straight now. Like nothing, but we're in.
That the borders were all
closed, but there was one guy just today. There was one guy that somehow went to Melbourne for 10 days and then came back. I don't know how he did it, but he's also an Uber driver and was in the community for 10 days.
So I could be on the verge of my next lockdown. I don't know.
Jess Chalker: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: And he wasn't vaccinated. And so he's suffering to the point that he can't even talk to the people and he wasn't using the check-in app and all this irresponsible stuff that I guess we just have to deal with. But, it is. It's it's strange because.
Before, I guess for me, and this is completely off topic, but like my husband's family role in the UK and my family role in Victoria. So we actually don't have any family support and we have three very small children and we used to have, like, we have a whole bedroom set up for family members because we would have every few months we need to have.
Someone from the UK. I we'd have my parents come up to visit or they'd even pop up just for a week, you know, to help out. And then we haven't had that for two years. I am going insane. It's probably one of the reasons I started this podcast I needed, I needed to talk to somewhere,
Jess Chalker: Oh,
Rae Leigh: but it, yeah, it's definitely put a whole new perspective in my mind into like, getting to know your neighbors and being involved in the community and like seeking that stuff.
From the local people that are in my immediate vicinity and not relying on people that live, you know, hundreds of kilometers or miles away.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. I mean, gosh, it must be so tough having three kids and not having the support. I, I
feel for you. I think, I think, I mean, I, you know, I don't have kids, but it's still, I can, I can just imagine. And I mean, we have, we've
got a spare room. We have no kids, but we first bedroom
and we had
exactly the kind of cat lady.
We had visitors, we have visitors coming to see
us all the time and it was so. It's to have this constant stream of people coming to visit and, you know, in that interaction, which you just take for granted and then
subtly, you know, no one and in the UK, we've been here for three years. And I've got a few good friends living here, but we don't have anywhere near the sort of network that we
had in Australia. It's a different, it's, it's different culturally here too. It's harder. I find in a lot of ex-pats I know I'm find it hard to make really good friends here.
It's whereas when I, you know, I used to spend a lot of time in the state. It's a, again, like the
culture's very different, it's very warm and
welcoming and people, you know, you've met someone once and they've invited you to a Sunday barbecue
kind of thing.
But so, but yeah, I think it's, yeah, I think I just thought with, with, locked lockdown and doing, and things kind of emerging that, you know, everyone would be like, right. That's it let's pick, that's pick up where we left off, but it hasn't really
been the case. So it's just going to take some
time.
What are we at time?
Rae Leigh: it is so strange. So strange. All right. So let's, let's talk about your music. So you had a bit of writer's block. Let's go back to that. How did you cope with that? Cause I haven't actually talked to that many people about writer's block and I guess the strategy of processing through that experience.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. It was really tough. I couldn't write for a really long time. And I remember it was, it was around the time. I think I've been invited on the road with Leo. I barely played a single show and he. Touring nationally. And I ended up kind of joining him for the east coast leg of
his tour. And it was when passenger, passenger, passenger wasn't well-known, but we're spending quite a lot of time in Australia and we can became friends at that point.
And I remember sitting down having a conversation with him about it and just saying, look, God, like, I don't know what to do. I've had this song that's gone well. And I don't feel like I can write
anything better. And I feel I can, uh, you know, I feel like an imposter. And he just said, you know, it's, it's, if it's in
you, it's in you. And it's something that's always stuck with me because. And I think it necessarily made me like go right. I'm suddenly now immediately out of writer's block. But I think I, it helped me to sort of overcome that imposter syndrome. I was definitely
going through, as a result. And I think, there's a book called the writer's way.
I don't know if
you've heard of, I can't remember the name of the
author,
Rae Leigh: of it. I don't know if I've read that one.
Jess Chalker: It's a really great book by Julia Cameron or somebody. No, sorry, Sarah Maitland.
I think it's by Sarah. But anyway that this, the way that they advise you to approach writer's book was to just basically sit down and write and
write and write and write.
You know, until something comes out of you, basically what we were talking about before, like getting you to enter into that channeling state, that meditative or almost state where you're focused solely on creation and not all of those outside, things that distract us. And I, I sort of, I've started doing applying that as a technique and it did help me.
I've just found, I started with. Your stones and rather than throwing things away, because I just have a tendency to think very hard on myself and think this is crap. Like I would just work through, you know, a bunch of songs that I felt maybe weren't so good, but it just got me. Process of doing that.
Got me back on track, where I felt, okay, at least I'm being productive now and I'm creating something. Maybe I don't like as much, but I am creating something that will hopefully lead me on to that thing that I do like, and I think we've lost. I do think we've lost that a little bit with, this culture that we're now in, that is very singles focused and doesn't, and has sort of taken away this, the album is.
Yeah, I feel like the album is such an important, construct for, for artists and for musicians, because, you know, you think of all your favorite records and all of the songs that I took them to write their great song. And, and often they had to write that whole record and all the album Phillips to write the single and, and I think that's, I think that's a really important.
Part of an artist process. I think, you know, this pressure that we put on ourselves to write a hit song, every song, it's just, it's not right.
Is it?
Rae Leigh: I like that. I haven't heard that point of view before. Obviously I've heard a lot of other reasons around the marketing and release and blah, blah, blah. People don't listen to more than one song, yada, yada, yada. However, I do actually really like that process. And for me, I feel like an album or even like a decent AP.
Is is more about capturing the artist's life and their, like where they're at in that moment, that that body of work is released. So you can really get an idea of what they're going through and where they're at in their life with, with like a body of work. Whereas if it's just a single, you don't really know where that's come from or what it Is or what it? represents.
Like, does that make
sense to
Jess Chalker: No, that's exactly the same that you think you probably put it way more articulately than I did. I think, I think our body of work is definitely very symbolic and indicative of where that artist is in
that moment. And you get that set and you get a sense of who the artist is from an album or is with a single ma I just don't think as much there's there needs to be like this more elaborate sort of
marketing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jess Chalker: Like exercise around a single two cell, you know, the story
of an honest, whereas an album, I think.
Rae Leigh: get it though. Like on the marketing side of things, I get it for an album, You're going to see. Three times four times as much then for a single and probably get just as much exposure I guess, and reach with a single as you would with an album, but it's a different process. It's a different,
Jess Chalker: Yeah, I think definitely. I mean, and especially now, like there's just so much content everyone's, everyone's a content creator, whether or not they're a musician or a Novellus or like an Instagram influencer, everyone's got something that they're
they're touting and, you know, putting your right. W, this is just, this is just like, this is the day and age that we live in.
Like where you put out single.
after single. I think I'm just a bit, just a bit old school in that way that I like, you know, and, but also I was really lucky with this record that I'm putting out next month, that I was lucky that I had a, an Australia council grant that
helped me put it together because it might not have been something that I could have afforded to
do. I'm not, you know, I'm independent. I don't have a record label. That's
paying for it. So. You know, that that is, I feel, I feel privileged to have that
blessing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. That's awesome. So how did that come about? What's the Australian council.
Jess Chalker: the Australia council for
the arts. Yeah. Recommend you look into it.
Rae Leigh: I will.
Jess Chalker: it's, it's a really amazing government body that supports, Australian artists, in, you know, creating a new body of work or. It might be, you might be writing a novel or a play or an album, supports artists from all across the spectrum,
basically. And so, yeah, and so earlier this year, I, so I, I spent a lot of last year. I sadly lost my job kind of mid last year and well, Well, so sort of I'm sniffing around for something to do. I had all of these songs sitting in my laptop and, and, I decided that I would finish finished this album that I've been working towards for a really long time.
And, early this year I wrote a grant for the Australia council and asked them to pledge some money to support me in the
release of it. So, that's really what I've been
able to do this.
Rae Leigh: that's amazing. I was so grateful to them for, for supporting you in it. Tell me, what does it mean to you like this.
This is a pretty huge release for you. What's what's the process behind it? What are you hoping that it does? And where does it, where it takes you?
Jess Chalker: It's funny, I think in terms of where I'm hoping that it takes me, I've had, I've been really lucky to have family. You know, really cool career as a songwriter. I've worked in Australia and the UK and the U S numbers for some great artists. This is, you know, I, I do actually think of myself as an artist first and foremost, and derailed by circumstances.
This album, I think. It's something that as an artist, I've always wanted to release
a record, in terms of where I'm hoping it takes me. I'm just hoping that allows me to continue, you know, an artistic path in some way. I have pretty reasonable expectations of what an independent artists is capable of exactly on a
world stage with a
limited budget. But I, you know, I, I really hope that people, yeah. I meant to find it and hear it and enjoy it. And, that the songs kind of struck a chord with the
right people.
Rae Leigh: Is there a running theme that you have, you analyzed your songs and worked out kind of what you think, the sort of theme or the messages behind the music is?
Jess Chalker: Yeah. I
Rae Leigh: that it's not going to be interpreted. However it. is, people interpret it. That's the beauty of music, but
what does it tell.
Jess Chalker: I think to me, it took me a really long time to come up with a, with the album title. I stewed over it for a really long time. And then it sort of came to me one day hemispheres because I, I had spent so much time between the north and south hemisphere for one, just, you know, working as a, some way to, and then also.
Having this other corporate life. So I, I have felt throughout my life actually, you know, I grew up as a Jehovah's witness and then I had the whole bunch of friends that were in the witnesses. I, I felt that I've had this drill duality, um, to my life. So I think hemispheres speaks to that. Speaks to the right and left hemispheres of the brain of, you know, using one
side is for, for artistic things, creative things.
And then using the other side for kind of, you know, more corporate like styles of.
And yeah, and, and first year constant traveling and upheaval, I'm just, I'm, I'm such a nomadic person. I, I, um, I, I feel that hemisphere is really, really just speaks to these like yeah. This duality that I've
had in my life.
Yeah. Does that answer your
question?
Rae Leigh: No, I love that. And I find it really hard.
Jess Chalker: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Honestly, if people would ask me these questions, you know, like what, what is your purpose? What's your brand? What's your sound like all that sort of like marketing type stuff. But I love hearing what the music means to you and what it is you necessarily want people to feel out of it. Yeah.
I I've written songs. And then someone's like, you know, related to the death of a child. And like, I haven't had that experience, but the fact that they took that from my music made me realize that people will take your music, however, it, they want to take it. But I think it's beautiful to hear
what the artist feels and connects to it.
You know what the story behind it is for
you.
Jess Chalker: Yeah, I think, I think that's interesting. People will always, I mean, that's what we sort of hope for is right. Is that. That our experience is universal enough that it's applicable, it's applicable to a whole range of human experiences. I could tell you each, I could tell you exactly what each song was about to me, but I wouldn't want to ruin, you know, someone else's experience of, of those words and what it might
kind of mean to them.
So,
Rae Leigh: Why don't you just tell us what your favorite
one is on there.
Jess Chalker: I think I, I think there's probably two, two, my
two favorite, I'll say, there's a song called west Hollywood, which feels deeply personal to me, which I wrote, when I was staying in west Hollywood as a songwriter and I was living long distance from
my partner and
Rae Leigh: Um,
Jess Chalker: the lyrics were very, very, very Ernest and, I don't sleep.
And then there's another song called dance in the
rain, which was actually the very first track I released from the record actually roasted a couple of years ago, along with the video clip. And I wrote that one. That was really when I was coming out of, you know, a lot of long corporate projects.
And, you know, I had a friend who was really kind of wanting to do something different
with his life and,
Need a little
coaching out of that land. And I had definitely found freedom kind of moving on in that world. And you can, uh, you know, it's great to earn lots and lots of money, but if you're miserable and you're working, you're chained to your desk till midnight, which at the
time was, that's my life.
So
Yeah.
yeah. Can you,
Rae Leigh: Oh yeah. Eight years of corporate. Just mess. Yeah,
not anymore.
Jess Chalker: Yeah, I think you just need to evaluate, I mean, it's different though. If you've got, you know, you've got a family of feed and you've got kids and
if, you know,
Rae Leigh: It was a good experience. I'm not going to say it wasn't and it paid mat leave for all three children. So there was benefits to it. But, I think we have to take that from everything we do, you know,
to learn from it and let it shape us.
Jess Chalker: yeah. I mean, I think it also depends on the type of, you know, but. The job has a job. It's so much about the people that you're
working with too. And the experience that you have, if you work with a wonderful group of people, then it doesn't really, you know, you could be working for an incredible charity that does like that, you know, promises to turn the world around.
But then if you're working with terrible people, you're going to have an
awful experience. So, um, I mean, there's like, there's a balance between purpose and, you know, and, being, being happy in the
environment that you're in, I think, Yeah, but being an artist in amongst that it's tricky because not everyone can who, who you work with can relate
Rae Leigh: I found it soul crushing,
but,
Jess Chalker: Yeah.
Yeah.
Rae Leigh: but that's okay. I, yeah. So w we, weren't talking about corporate because I have very strong feelings about the corporate world. I want to know about co-writing, have you done much code writing and what's your advice around, you know, how do you prepare and go into a right.
Jess Chalker: Yes. Obviously I have worked as a songwriter as a professional songwriter and I've done a lot of co-writing. I guess I, I could, I have to talk about it from the perspective of being a songwriter for someone else or preparing to co-write as an artist, going into a session, which I think probably is a bit more
relevant to our chat.
I think if you're an artist going into. I mean, I was always very, as an artist, I was always super against co-writing because I felt that if I didn't fully write the song, then it wasn't purely from me. And I held onto that for a long time. And I think that. I think the going through the period of writer's block and then, you know, my first few songwriting sessions where it was really enjoyable to just connect with another human being for a day and then just come up with something.
I started to think differently about it. I don't think that's the case at all. I think you can create something that is still very
uniquely you as an artist. And then you have the benefit of having another person there that can help you to shape your ideas or to. You know, make you just think a little bit differently.
I mean, we all, as songwriters, we all have, you know, the F the phrasing that we all week that we do all the time, or we have our lazy habits that we have, we
just do.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jess Chalker: I think another person having another person, can push you out of that. And so for, for a lot of this record, actually quite a number of the songs, after written, where I've, you know, I've either kind of left.
There's a couple of assistant Nicholas attract that I really. Just today actually, that the track was the song. The music was already written, which is totally unusual for me. I usually like to be very much involved in writing the chord progression, or the melody often just won't come to me. But in that case, Dan had a bit of a chord progression, already Dan long is this amazing producer and co-writer mixer that I worked with in LA for the song.
He already had a track and, and I had a. The idea for melody. The, a sort of helped me to finesse and then I put some lyrics down and then we've sort of worked together on the production. He really took the lead and that was a really amazing experience. And, you know, we came up with a track that I might not have come up with
on my own. So I think, I think it's really just allowing yourself to. Tanning yourself over to the experience and not, some people still feel as though they, they, they never want to do that. I know if you got a step, you know, quite successful who just completely flat out refuse to go. Right. And I think it's to their detriment actually.
, what do you think?
Rae Leigh: Oh, I love co-writing some of the best songs I've ever written with her rights. So, because I, you know, I accept my flaws actually. I think?
it was when I was in Nashville where I was so inspired and I actually had the pin penny dropped where I realized I didn't have to do everything myself. I think.
Coming from Australia and knowing very little about the industry. I, I had this weed stupid belief now that I said out loud that I had to write the whole song. It had to be amazing. I had to be able to produce it. I had to be out of the music video and I had to be able to do the, all the PR and the business and do it all myself.
And just the idea of like having to do absolutely everything was so overwhelming that it was like, why even bother? Like I'm never going to be able to do that. And then I went to Nashville and just middle east songwriter. With blown away at how everyone they've worked together. Like they just collaborate and that's like, this guy's really good with bridges.
And this guy is really good with melody and this guy is really good with these types of songs. And, you know, it's was like, actually, you can just get like a team of people and you can all work together and do one little thing really well. And then let someone else take the reins on the things that you're not so good at.
So
Yeah.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. That's I think that's right. I, America seems to get a lot more than I think Australia is. I mean, there's loads of co-writing that's happening in Australia and people, you know, coming on board. I would love, I'd love to see females more champion as producers. I do think that there is, I do think that we still have a very, there's still a very masculine.
As much as everyone talks about, oh, we've got all these great singer songwriters who, a female and mostly it's males who are
well it's mostly guys, God is still
producing
them and, and,
Rae Leigh: so managing guys still on the record labels guys, you know, yeah,
It's, it's similar to the corporate world, you know? Yeah.
Jess Chalker: yeah.
Rae Leigh: is
still
Jess Chalker: It's talked about it's stuff about, and it's a work in progress and you know, it's really in PR
in progress, you know?
Yeah, I
Rae Leigh: But taking steps in the right direction.
Jess Chalker: I think so. I mean, I still haven't seen the four corners episode on Dennis Hanlon,
the CEO at Sony, but I know, I mean, I know that there, most of the artists in, in the Sony house have not come forward and said anything because.
You know, they don't want to bite the hand that feeds them. It's mostly employees of the company that are complaint about the treatment they received. They're not, not the artists.
So I mean, that that says a whole bunch to me as well, that people are still really afraid of coming forward and, putting themselves on the line, they don't feel safe to do that.
Then I think. W we really need to ensure that people do feel safe to come forward because things are not going to change
until, you know, we have, we have those artists,
you know, really,
Rae Leigh: You've got to follow your intuition. And I think as women, we also need to learn our power
and, you know, kind of take it back a bit.
And again, that's a whole nother podcast, but.
I think we can do it by being strong women and strong artists ourselves and inspire others that it's possible, you know, that's, that's all we can do, really.
Jess Chalker: I hope so. I think, I don't know if you would have probably seen that recent triple day tweet. The H you know, the ageism
that sparked this whole age-ism conversation Australia, especially around ages, ages, and then females, you know, female
songwriters, but.
Rae Leigh: And age-ism is so much more prevalent to females than it is.
Jess Chalker: Oh, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you can have 35 year old guy or bend could, can bring on
a record if that's
Rae Leigh: that's the perfect album. Yeah, but
if it's a 35 year old female,
forget it.
Jess Chalker: yeah, yeah,
Rae Leigh: Yep. You babes this out and decide gloves. Sorry.
Jess Chalker: well, that's right. And, and, there's puppy raid. Who's the editor that mentioned antitrust brag would a really great piece of the industry observer
in the industry.
So it's like, it's like as soon as you know, the old white men in the boardroom stop fantasizing about you, you
you're done. Like that's,
that's it.
But yeah.
It's it's funny. I mean, I, I still find that I still find that a lot myself and I'm in my thirties and releasing my
debut record. And you know, of course I think about, I think about ageism and I think
about, you know, the outlets that just won't promote my music because of my age.
but I also just don't
care.
Rae Leigh: Ah, it's yeah.
I don't carry the, I'm in my thirties and I've released my first single like last
year.
Like it
Jess Chalker: goodness. Good for you.
Rae Leigh: I'd Like to went to a talent competition. Like I will go to finalist in this festival and I went up there and I played and I was first. Thank goodness. because I would've freaked out afterwards because I was the only, there was more than like everyone was teenagers.
Like the oldest other person was 19 and I was 32. And I'm like, why, why did they even put me in this light? I thought, I thought it was really mean to them. As soon as I found it, everyone else was teenagers. I was like, I don't want to win. Like how don't don't you.
dare give it to me because teenagers need the encouragement.
So I don't need this. I'm going to do this, whether you like me or not, you know, but it was a really surreal experience being a new artist, going into, I guess, an industry that said. Beginners to be
young, you
know? Yeah.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. And I think, I think, you know, if you're only 32 and that was only last
year, I just think that's still so young. You know, I think that, I think that anybody who's in their early thirties thinking, that they are too old is that's just, it's just
ridiculous. Isn't it?
Rae Leigh: Oh no, no, no, no. You never took my grandma used to always say you're as old as you feel.
And. I don't know, I'm a big believer that it doesn't, you're always the perfect age. There's nothing you can do about it anyway, you know, and like I've got three kids and a lot of people would say, you shouldn't do it as a mum, but there's heaps of artists out there that like pinks them up, you know, like it's not a thing, but people will project their own beliefs on to you.
Jess Chalker: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: got
to get
over.
Jess Chalker: I'm just not sure why being an artist. We're sort of, it's like every other profession is allowed to age gracefully and it's acknowledged that the older that you get, the better
that you become, like as a lawyer, you're going to be probably a much better lawyer at 45. And you
were to anyone when you've just finished uni. So, you know, you're going to be writing a bit about different things. You're going to, you're going to mature and you're going to have a different
perspective to share, you know, then you had, when you were 22, when you were breaking up. Second boyfriend, you know, it's, it's a different
stage of life. And then there'll be people that are at the same age of your life that will, you know, will totally get
what well thing as opposed to
Rae Leigh: absolutely. Right.
Jess Chalker: so so silly. I mean, I think, you've just got to find where your audience is and that's really, I think, especially now, like we're talking about before, like this everybody's a
content creator, it's, it is harder to find that audience now than ever, but you know, if you can find them. But, you know, one person loves it a
million.
Well,
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I do like what you're saying about, yeah. I like I like how you said for women, we're not allowed to age gracefully. It's like, I actually agree. Like I look at like, you know, women who have had a really successful, you know, like Cher and Madonna and Dolly, and I'm like, they've. Oh, I pretty sure all of them have, have had extensive surgery to kind of maintain their youth.
And they're like, actually, that's kind of sad. Really?
Jess Chalker: Yeah. I mean, if everyone has whatever any
anybody wants to do to preserve, or like what, you know, I don't know how I'm going to feel when I'm 70. I like to think I'm not going to ever have a facelift, but who knows maybe when I'm 65 or 70, I will, what might
give me that facelift. But I also think that.
They've they've come through the worst of it. They have
haven't they, I know it's going to be for younger artists now. I'm really
inspired to see, you know, like artists who are in the mainstream, like Hosey, who's just had a baby and who's just put out this
incredible record, which has amazing artwork of her, being this empowered mother, basically breastfeeding her child on her album cover and that's like,
it's like, hell yeah.
Rae Leigh: boom.
Yes.
Jess Chalker: is, this is why this is where we're going.
You know,
Rae Leigh: That's promising. Isn't it.
Jess Chalker: yeah, it is it's, it's really cool. And I think I saw, what's her name? From the preachers Isabella man Fredy was, in the song that she released recently that she, she was pregnant in her video and I was just like, Ben, that
is so cool. Like I just, I would just want to say more of that. I wished that, that, you know, I'd had that role model when I was young, I
think,
Rae Leigh: you just have to do it, Diane. Okay. I'm going to get this podcast going. Um, cause we had talked about this for a long time. What's the best advice you've ever been given in this industry?
Jess Chalker: To ignore the industry.
I I'd say, I think, I think they're, I mean, everybody wants to everyone, everyone wants to find commercial success in some way, and everybody looks to the industry to enable that for them. I think, you know, the most interesting cases of success I've seen have come from people who have gone, who followed their own path, like a really close friend of mine, kina Grannis, she's American.
She was signed to Interscope. She won a super bowl con competition, and she was signed to Interscope based off this great song that she wrote. And she decided to ditch this. Fancy recording contract to follow her own path and to create her own don't. But the music that she wanted to create to not kind of have to feel that she needed to sex sex, so sexualized herself.
And she's got a great career
now, you know, it's not maybe the one that, you know, she, she does a lot of cover songs, but she writes beautiful songs. She's an incredible song writer and she's built. Amazing Spotify following, like she's got 5 million Spotify followers per month and she's got some crazy million
number of like YouTube subscribers and she's done it completely
independently. Passenger is another one. I mean, Hey, had the benefit of ed Sheeran sort of, you know, helping him out a little bit, but paver someone who issued. Referral labels and D went on his own way. And yet it took in 10 years when he bust and he's
he's made it, um, it can happen that you have to put in the time and the hard Yoko, but you know, it can
happen. But I think,
Rae Leigh: there are a lot of people out there being successful without having to be that successful.
Like you can
still have a successful business without
having to be, you know, super famous.
Jess Chalker: Of course, I think, I think also that's another thing that people don't realize you can have. There are all of these other lean ways for a successful
business. Like if you you know, people who are, have no plays on Spotify, but make millions of dollars in
sync, like that says there's other, other careers that you can have.
So yeah, I, I think the best advice I've been given as. Learn the business and sorry, learn that. Learn the business of running. You're an artist, but you're also a small business. I know. Unfortunately you just have to resign yourself to that fact. You have to, you know, pay bills somehow. Ignore, you know, forget industry pressures.
People will come to you once you've built the audience. and hopefully you've built the audience your
own way, and you have created something that you are proud of and that you've not had to make too many compromises.
So
Rae Leigh: Yeah, I like that. I am.
I really liked the idea of, and I love the people that connect to my music and the people that come to the shows and the people that buy the merch and, you know, message all the time and support, support the art.
Like that's what it's about all the awards and the magazine like, oh, you know, all the other kind of.
Stuff that we do to get awareness out there to reach those people. It's important, but it's not, it's not the end of the world. You know, it's not the Beale or end, or you don't need to win a Grammy to have a meaningful connection with someone through your art.
Jess Chalker: That's right. Yeah. If you've just got to have a, an audience that's this that is sustainable, and and focus on focus on what you need to do to do that.
Forget the industry.
Rae Leigh: And constantly get better, like you said, which is really good. If you could carve out a song with anyone in the world living or dead, who would it be and why?
Jess Chalker: Oh, I think about that.
Gosh, I mean, I'm a huge David Bowie
fan.
So I'd say, and I'm a huge Paul McCartney
fan. Maybe I'd be so interested to see, I think I'd have to say Paul McCartney. I feel like that's fairly cliche, but I would just be so interested to see what his process is. I think.
You know, whether or not he like right the very first one, the melody or the, the
music, and how gracious and generous he is, or otherwise, as soon as I'm writing room,
Rae Leigh: I would like to know too. I'd love to have him on the show and just pick his brain. He'd be like, tell me,
Jess Chalker: tell
Rae Leigh: show me your ways.
Jess Chalker: do you have imposter syndrome?
Rae Leigh: Oh, I'm sure everyone's been through that at some point. I think it's a right of passage in life
Jess Chalker: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: because if you don't question it, then you can't find. The answers. And certainly once you have the answers of who you are and what your purpose is that you then can have the confidence in that that's who you are.
And that's what your purpose
is.
Jess Chalker: Yeah. Or maybe it's just a, maybe it's a. a. constant journey of finding
out. I don't know. I, I actually feel like I never have, I've never quite landed on my exact purpose. I feel like if I had, I would stop searching. We're always searching for whatever it is, where you will always on this, like ch like onward, like journey towards something.
Yeah.
Rae Leigh: You'll find it. I think there's, I talked to someone and they said everyone has two lives is like the life that you have when you're growing. And then, then there's like the second life and it, and you know, once you're in your second life, I think, but I remember I was always very like, what is my life about what does it mean?
Like I just, you know, I was so desperate to figure it all out. And, I think I'm just enjoying the moment now. And like, life is just about having fun
Jess Chalker: That's it,
Rae Leigh: just doing the next thing.
Jess Chalker: it that's, I think it's exactly it. And when you said, you know, you'll find it, I'm
not sad about it. I think this is this realization that, you know, life is, I hate the word journey, the life, but you're always, you're always on this like forward path discovering new things. And I, I think once you let go of who am I?
What's my purpose.
Rae Leigh: um,
Jess Chalker: I think you'd become a lot happier in yourself. And I definitely have, because I'm not, I just recognize that the search is what makes
life great. And I'm probably never going to find the thing. And maybe if I find the thing, my life wouldn't be. Living anymore. I, you know, I would lose my S my zest, my spot for it.
I always want to be on this road, you know, I always want to be searching.
Rae Leigh: That was like my last official question. So this is the part of the podcast where I open it up to you. You can share, you know, whatever it is you want. I'm going to put all your socials, your links people, and go find your music and connect with you in the description of the podcast.
It'll also be a featured blog on the website. So people will be able to get in touch, follow you and, you know, listen to your new album and just support you. Our fellow Aussie in London. Is there anything else you would like to say or share?
Jess Chalker: No, I think just like a, I guess, a plug for my record. So my debut hemispheres is coming out in the fifth and that November. I hope there's something, I hope there's something on there for everyone. I think there is. And, Yeah, the songs, mean a lot to me.
And, I'm just really proud of it and hope, hope it finds its way in the world in whatever way. I just, I figure it's also just a part of what I, what I leave behind in this world too. So
Rae Leigh: That's awesome. Well, I'm really looking forward to it. We're going to do what we can to support you and promote you as much as possible. We're all going to go and listen to it right now. But yeah. thank you. so much for joining me and sharing so much of your, your journey with us and, and helping, helping us all learn. I really appreciate.
Jess Chalker: Oh, thank you so much for having me on your show. It's just so lovely to talk to another human being like in general at this time.
Rae Leigh: Oh, literally like this is the whole reason it shut down. My husband was going nuts with me talking easier off. So he's like, can I do a podcast?
And 12 months later, here we go. Thank you again.
