#192 Matthew Donlevy
This is a special episode with publishing expert Matt Donlevy from Cooking Vinyl Publishing Australia, we talk all about publishing and why it’s so integral to a successful songwriting career. Another aspect of the songwriting world with many different hats over a lifetime career in Sydney.
Some of their artists include: Alphawolf, Emily Barker, Ceres, Eliza & the delusionals, Emma Donovan & the Putbacks, Fanny Lumsden, Gravemind, High Tension & lots more.
Connect with Matt:
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Transcript
Rae Leigh: Welcome to another Songwriter Tryst with Matt Donlevy, the amazing publishing guru that I met at the Australian somewhere as conference in 2021 wasn't it
Matthew Donlevy: That's going fast. Doesn't it
Rae Leigh: has, but also the managing director of cooking vinyl publishing Australia. So you've got some amazing music business and information that probably just about every song writer on the planet, amateur or professional, nice and all that. And, you're an incredible teacher and, and Cher and businessman in the music industry.
So we're going to get lots of that information out of you as much as possible to share with everyone who's listening. But I like to start with you, as my guests on the show, tell us a little bit about who you are and where you come in.
Matthew Donlevy: Oh, sure. I'm Sydney born and bred. Uh, and I have been in the music publishing business since I left high school. In fact, I joined, in my publishing's, print department, picking sheet music at the shelves, and then I became a state rep. And then I began going, driving around to different retail outlets, try and associate music, which used to be a thing in the day.
Of course, nowadays, that doesn't mean anything. Uh, but then I moved into the creative department for a while and that was cool. And, um, I enjoyed that very much. And then I moved to ATV Northern souls, which was, uh, And very impressive catalog had a number of very good local songwriters, including the church Allan Caswell was there.
Of course. In fact, I had one of my most successful times in song plugging when I was at ATV Northern because, uh, I had all these old realtor reels that Ellen had left. And he would say, send this song to this person at this address. So I
may look to a different locations. We got so many cuts. He was such a
prolific songwriter.
He had so many great songs and
Rae Leigh: he's killer. Yeah. I was at his house the other day. Just writing a song.
Matthew Donlevy: there you go. Small world, huh?
Rae Leigh: yeah, it is a small little, but it's good. He lives down the road from me. So it's a win-win I learned, I learned a lot from him.
Matthew Donlevy: Oh, there you go. He's like, yeah. Well, he's a, he's still a songwriter, prolific songwriter, you know,
He's always been, and he was always been a bit of a driver in that regard. Would you have.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: Anyway, I left, ATV Northern songs when Michael Jackson bought it. Everything changed after that. And, I moved to an oddly enough, another podcast, a member of your very, very impressive list of people who you've done podcasts with Kim Cheshire.
Rae Leigh: but yeah. Oh yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Kim Kim and I were working together out of the same office. He was in a management company and I was, I was at ATB Northern songs and there was a job going at pier music as general manager. And I was, I said to Kim, I saw the ad and I thought, bloody hell, that's a good gig. And I said to Kim, you should go for that.
And it keeps it, no, no, you should go for that. And I did. And of course they got it and I was there for over 25 years, which was pretty amazing. And I became from general manager, managing director to regional director for Southeast Asia, which I enjoyed very much, got to travel a
lot, which was a real boon, you know, set up a bunch of office in Southeast Asia. yeah. I'll I like southeast picture, you know what I mean? I've been very lucky. I've been to China, a number a number of times.
I liked it. I liked it very much made me realize how big the world is. Well,
you know, Singapore, Philippines, Korea was really, really interesting for example, set up a really good office up there.
And now of course, Korea is one of the major hotspots for music. And then I moved. I left pier and, took a bit of a time off, did a bit of management, which I didn't find satisfying. And, then took up cooking vinyl publishing, set it up from, gecko. It's a record label UK record, basically.
And, I guess if you want to think of it's, Billy Bragg would be out at the biggest act with, but it's a big, big distribution company, but I set up for the local, which is cooking vinyl Australia, I guess their biggest X would be rock acts like Parkway drive and pull hours look abroad. And,
I set up a publishing arm with just me and my pan and Martin Goldschmidt, who was my boss.
And we, we started up a company and we're off and running and we now have about 40 separate publishing. Partners, I guess we call them, you know, which I like very much. So, I'm very happy to be here and work in, and
it's an interesting time for the business.
Rae Leigh: It is. And I mean, there, there are so many questions I have about, just about everything you said there. So let's see if we can maybe work through a little bit of it. Tell me first, how, how does anyone, like, I can't even imagine any child or teenager going straight out of high school
into publishing. What, what, what was the inspiration for
Matthew Donlevy: I guess, my father was EMD was the one of those things. It was, it's not the family business or anything like that? And I didn't, he didn't have asked me to go into the business or force me. I was just, it was always of interest to me and. One thing in publishing, you tend to start down the bottom and move your way up. And you know, like a lot of publishers have all come from different places. They can know, for example, you know, some are from record companies, some are from, you know, administrative parts of the business. So,
publishers do come from the bottom up. We tend to learn our business along the way.
It's not something that you particularly learn at a university or anything like that. And I do like the fact that I came from the bottom for no other reason than I have a good sense of pretty well, most of the business, but, you know, I say that the business has changed so much over the last 30 years.
I mean, just so much. So, you know, that's one thing about being a publisher. Of course, you have to evolve
with changes in the business, you know, that's just the harsh reality of it, you know, you know, when, when this is how old I am, but I remember when CDs bloody hell, that was a huge bonus for music publishers because suddenly and record companies, of course, because suddenly they're really selling the same product, but putting it onto a different format.
And the new format of course, was far more lucrative for both publisher and, and record company. And then of course, that ran its course and retail had shifted and then it moved to digital downloads. And even that was good for publishing and the publishers were doing very well on digital downloads because it was a very organized business.
We'd had no, idea how to do, the disruptors, how to license all of those different illegal download situations. And of course it took someone like a hardware manufacturer, like apple to show the music business, how to actually sell music online. And they were particularly good at that. And that was a terrific deal. And then of course, that evolved into a streaming service
Rae Leigh: yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: one of the harsh realities of the streaming services it's, it's financially tough to make money. You know, that's just the reality of it, you know, in fact, cause one of the things, I wanted to talk about today. There's more, I don't want to really tell people how to write songs or, you know, um, how to help them, get that super chorus in, or, you know, I want to talk about the business components and how they want to, I want sort of where it is to think about that more than give advice, because you've had too many other good songwriters to tell you that sort of stuff.
I see. Email Alan scott.
Rae Leigh: on.
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Including Alan, scott who's even a podcast. Right. You know, I mean,
Rae Leigh: And there there's amazing songwriters. I think that there is definitely a gap in, in, in my own education, but also people that I've, throughout the entire podcast is I haven't really touched on much around what is publishing. Why do we need publishing? And what's, what's the really big, important part of that that a songwriter needs to have.
Matthew Donlevy: Okay. let's do a quick publishing 1 0 1. Music publishing is, is a cop. He's basically the
ownership of copyright of the soul. So there are two rights in a recording. There's the recording of the soul and there's the song itself. So there are two separate entities and two separate rights and two separate assets.
You have to remember songs are assets. And, you know, the one example I always love to give, is that the song yesterday by the Beatles, there's only one song, but there's over 4,000 different recordings of the world. So two separate entities. So whenever we licensed, so When we think about publishing. itself, there are a number of different income streams.
There's five major ones. Of course, first one being mechanical, which is, from the physical sale of product, which still happens. Of course, you mean was the environment has gives me in a room and Richard, and also there's a mechanical component to a digital stream and a digital download. Although digital downloads are pretty well over with now.
There's performance income, which is the most important one nowadays, of course, in publishing, because it depends if your song is getting played on the radio or if you're doing television, of course.
Or, you know, even, for a, I guess, a number of, the people listening to this, the live performance returns, where you have to put your live performance return into opera and opera will pay you for The shows that you do live
I think it's about two bucks a song, but if you do 12 songs a night and you do 10 different shows. You're getting money. In addition to the fees, you've run into negotiate negotiated for your, for your shows. Anyway.
Rae Leigh: you chose Anyway.
Matthew Donlevy: So chemicals performance sheet, which of course is a bit of a dying, a bit of a dead duck.
There's lyric reprints now, which still have some sort of value,
Marker
Matthew Donlevy: synchronization, which is when a song is sinked to a motion picture. That's what the real definition is. You can also sync a song to a radio ad. So having songs used in television film for advertising internet blasts, that's another. income stream in itself, and that can be quite lucrative. I understand you were, you did some synchronization with yourself in a TV show just recently. So, uh,
Rae Leigh: Yeah, so like just being on set and singing on a TV show,
um,
Matthew Donlevy: Well let's
what
synchronization is.
Rae Leigh: that's what it is. It's doing it
live, but where it's being recorded
Matthew Donlevy: Yep. And
synchronization is a pretty multifaceted thing. You know, for
example, I was looking in the statements today. We got a, we look after a guy called Nick whales who wrote some music for a Sydney dance company,
And one of the works that he wrote was called AB intra, which Samsung have used for their, digital marketing.
And we could pay for that today. So Nick will do quite well out of that license,
but we also did a lyric reprint for, Emma Donovan. Who's one of our other, one of our acts, and for a lyric reprint. We have sync has pretty multifaceted, umbrella.
Rae Leigh: Barilla.
Matthew Donlevy: And of course then the last digital and that's the streaming income. and uh, even the end, you know, And I say,
that's a separate entity, but it is because even though. Digital streaming services like Spotify and iTunes, there is half mechanicals and half performance income. So, they're, they're, you know, they're in the other income streams that I've already mentioned.
but they're the big, they're the biggies of course.
And, you know, and to give you a sense and I want to talk quickly about streaming
because, It's a big part of all of our worlds to give you a bit of a ballpark. It's, it's terrible business in regarding if you're a song writer or a couple of, I don't know, I mean, a Terrible.
business. It's great that you get paid.
It's just financially very poorly renumerated. For example, when we used to have CDs in the olden days, Every CD for the publishing alone
Rae Leigh: publishing the
Matthew Donlevy: was about dollar to a dollar 20 per person. You know, Pretty good. But then if you had 10 songs, well that's 12 cents a track, you know, pretty, pretty nice. And that, you know, and you have to remember when I talk about these sort of figures, I'm a publisher and I'm talking about the gross of the income that publishers collect.
We generally pay 70, 80% of it back to the writer. So you're, I'm talking about 80%, 70 to 80% of two writers share, for streaming income, give you a bit of a ballpark of what that looks like.
1 million streams. Okay. So a pretty serious activity. I mean, and of course the big end of town get a billion streams and you know, that happens. But you know, if you're a contemporary, local.
artist and you get 1 million streams, that's pretty good. As in fact, it's very Good. The trouble is that for that 1 million streams for publishing alone, that's 3000 bucks. Now That's really not going to pay the rent.
Rae Leigh: not going to pay your rent.
Matthew Donlevy: And of course, when you break that down a little bit, the one, $3,000 that You get half of it's mechanicals and the other half performance. It's like nobody's going to get really rich off. Yeah. And unfortunately the big end of town take a lot of that, you know, like the ed Sheeran's and the Ariana Grande's and the dosha cats are always the ones who do the better streaming figures. And that's just the reality.
Rae Leigh: Reality.
Matthew Donlevy: So it's not a great time financially. for songwriters, but one of the other things about that is of course, there's never been more. opportunities for success in music and to how to use the music
Rae Leigh: What makes you say that? Like
Matthew Donlevy: you think about so many, there's so many different programs at the moment, for example. So the centralization business is pretty, pretty open and exciting,
You know, there's so many different opportunities, particularly for up-and-comers because a lot of television programs don't just want the old standard numbers.
They want new and interesting things. For example, there's so many different internet blasts that happen all the time, which are always looking for material. There's so many different opportunities. Like Previously
there, there are only certain number of radio stations, you know, and if you're a contemporary,
act, you know, radio is one of those mystical kind of areas that, it's very hard to kind of break through.
I mean, triple J is luckily still open, but even getting on triple J. Technique nowadays double J's a lot easier for a number of acts, but commercial nail, the commercial networks like Nova and the other stereos are very tricky. They have a very limited, agenda in regarding how much new material they play.
They have a very limited use of gender on how much contemporary, Australian, new material they play. So you know, you have to be quite lucky to get that
but if you are lucky enough to get some commercial radio play, for example, it's quite lucrative. Triple J's not as much double J is terrible.
And then you've got, you know, FBI's and all of the more independent ones, which are great avenues to get out, but again, not going to pay the rent.
Rae Leigh: No
Matthew Donlevy: So there are many opportunities for songs right now. You've just got to find them, I guess, is what I'm
Rae Leigh: it is. And it's about being creative as well. And like, I think you said with the online streaming is easier. For example, like me at home, I can jump on Tik TOK or Instagram and go live and we can reach an audience without having to wait for a radio to play my song or it's, you know, not necessarily, there's just, there's, there's different avenues and more creative ways and more control I think in my hands.
Whereas I feel like 20, 20, 30 years ago, I literally would have to be banging on record labels doors to hear my music, and then believe in me enough to go and print vinyls and stuff and do all that sort of
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Well, and even like a couple of years ago, we were paying we as a publisher or we, as the artists were paying to get people to take music music into triple J. I mean, we paid to take it in you couldn't just be in the hope that on earth would be fair. You'd be founded on earth. Record labels will do that on your behalf. Some people do with your promo sort of stuff, you know, How do you get found? I could think that's one of the things, cause radio is one it's still one of the better places to be found, but there's so many other opportunities, you know, like Tik TOK is a really interesting example of,
fashion, I guess, and how people want to hear it.
And, you know,
I think it's a fascinating kind of principle because it's all very short. So nobody has to listen to a whole song or anything like that. You can actually have a whole bunch of different uses for your soul and it can regain a Chuy's catalogs. And how many acts
have come out of Docker last couple of years?
Rae Leigh: Oh, so many and, and old songs like actually Allan Caswell has a song that's just unreal. Well on Tik TOK, um, called really stupid people that he wrote with Lockland Bryan, like five, six years ago or even seven years ago. Cause it was, wasn't a CD. He gave me seven years ago called really stupid people.
And people in are using it on Tik TOK, you know, for their own videos. But there's been so many hundreds or thousands of videos now with millions of views that has revived their song that, you know, if I was him, I probably would have
blamed was like, you know, old news, but now it's
Matthew Donlevy: And that's the nature of the meat. That's the nature of music
itself. You just never know. That's one of the things with corporate owners
like ourselves, you just never know because they may be a movie that's looking for, you know, a hard rock from 2007, you know, so you have to go through your catalog.
We'll have any hardware from 2007, um, And
suddenly your songs back in again, you know, I mean, we see, for example, movies have a great, uh, way of reenergizing things like guardians of the galaxy is a baby driver. Another movie,
that had brought out all these older songs to a whole new generation of people and suddenly songs are totally and utterly re-energized, you know, and that's exciting.
That's always exciting to have games games. They would, they resuscitate so many songs like my son who's 21. Who, know, of course, uh, is
he's he has an awful, I mean, he has a certain musical background because of me, but also he knows an awful lot of contemporary seventies, eighties, nineties works because of the songs that were played in grand theft auto and different games that he's played.
So you'd be, I'm astonished by sometimes when he sings along to something, I think how the hell do you know that? Oh, that was on, you know, California
dream here, or that was on this or that, you know? So music has life outside.
of just
performing it, all, listening to it on the radio.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Speaking of that, my nine-year-olds become a massive fan of ACDC because of, I don't know, you saw it on some YouTube channels, some gaming thing that he's in town. He's nine. I, I S I feel like AC DC was like, before my time, but then, like, I can't, you know, for me, it was for older people, um, slightly older than me.
I'm not gonna, you know, and then, and then I've kind of gone and had kids. I've had my life. I lived through the nineties and early two thousands. And then all of a sudden, I've got a kid who's now into ACDC, which is really
strange. I could say it's a full circle.
Matthew Donlevy: So I love that, that he likes that because
that's an unfiltered way of loving songs. That's an unfiltered way of loving material. He has no consideration about who they are or what their image is or any of that sort of stuff. It's only about, Hey, this kind
of, this moves
me from the inside.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And that's what a good song really does. Isn't it
Matthew Donlevy: That's
Rae Leigh: is it is it, it's what it's supposed to do, right? Like it shouldn't really matter who's singing it or how it's being so aware, you know, wherever it comes from, it should just be, is it good quality or not? Whether it's been on some amazing TV show or not.
It's more about that. I guess like with the radio stations you talked about, that can be really hard to get on or getting a sync deal. And those sorts of things for me, I look at it as like, well, they're really good one because they pay for the royalties to be on there. That's great. But that's a way of getting the material to a really big number of people really quickly, you know, a way that might actually engage with them at a time that makes that song important to them.
Um, and that's where I guess, yeah, anything can be. Can be good, but if the song isn't good enough to connect with people, it doesn't matter if they put it on a TV show. If it doesn't connect to people, we'll sit with them. It's not going to do
anything anyway. Um, so I
Matthew Donlevy: until it will
Rae Leigh: of view,
Matthew Donlevy: even like, for example, uh, for example, the, the voice finish on Sunday night and over a million people watched the show. So there's a million people who know who the final Tedder, for example,
and have some sort of emotional attachment to have even bothered. Now that's a, that's like, uh, an adrenaline push, uh,
like an ultra fast push for those singers.
And I did not, not necessarily songwriters, but then now nationally, it's such a fast way of getting to be known. So I'm never against, you know, these sort of programs, uh, about fast-tracking people, you know, because they can be
incredibly helpful. And, you know, you're suddenly nationally known
just because you'd been on Sunday night TV.
So,
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Matthew Donlevy: you know, there's
a
Rae Leigh: about building on that momentum as well. Like we had James Johnson on the show who was on Australian idol, like when, when he talks through his, you know, people go and listen to podcasts, but he went on to that TV show did really well. Um, I can't remember how far he went, but he said, he talked about his experience.
Once the show finished that, you know, he went from playing to pubs for 500 to a thousand people to six months later, struggling to get two people into a room. Um, because he wasn't doing his own thing. He didn't have his own sound in his, you know, um, brand really sorted or his own music that he was out there pushing.
And so it kind of died a bit of a death and then he's had to kind of reinvent himself and he's done so in a really good way and come back massively, which is awesome. Um, and I think of, uh, after talking to quite a, yeah, I've talked to quite a few people who have been on those shows and they all say the same thing.
You've got to use it as a launch.
But also, um, make sure you
got a business plan ready to go afterwards.
Matthew Donlevy: Yes,
that's right.
Rae Leigh: of somewhere to
go.
Matthew Donlevy: just had to step off from a show like that is always a tricky part and it's a really important part as well, because there is a stick, you know, there is a nice stepping off point, you know? Um, I look, I used to manage, um, brothers three for a while who came second in, uh, straight to a talent.
And I was always astonished by how well known they were, you know, I mean,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: cut three boys in a covers group, but, you know,
we had, luckily had a very good Booker,
but I just, I was astonished by how
well they did, You
know, and, clever them, you know? So there is a very nice stepping out point. I mean, you can always point to guys to basically, but guys boasting is a bit of a, I don't normally because he's such a star and what an amazing voice.
And he was the first as well. So it's a big hard step to go move from that location to continue. But you know, smart ones again.
And, you know, And, people who are doing those sort of shows as well,
like
Matt Corby and, they, you know, he can move from trying to do that covers and all that sort of stuff into a very serious career.
So Matt Colby now has his own label for
example.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah. And I feel like the one thing, not even just from these TV shows, but even from other people in America who have had like a really big song on whatever platform, whether it be YouTube or teak talk or something on a TV show, and they've had all this success on this one song, and this does come back to the songwriter, which is who we're talking to really, is it, they've had a song and I think some people, they place all these emphasis on this one song.
It does really well. Or maybe it doesn't, but you know, it does really well. And a lot of them that I've spoken to, there's a common thing of, and then nothing happened for a year and all of that momentum that they had from this, this big success of one song. Became nothing because I had no followup because they were just enjoying the ride while they were high. And that's something that, for me I've taken away is like always have the next thing. Like
Matthew Donlevy: Well, let's easiest done of course, because sometimes you just lucky enough to, to fluke it. You know, sometimes you just lucky enough to have that, that second song. You know, I was really pleased at tones and I could bring out, you know, the second and the third song, because the first one was initially was, a novelty soul.
And after that, she just kept popping up and it was like, thank goodness for that, because she could have been one of those, like,
what was a good game style, you know, one Uber song. And then, you know, we would see the music business has been littered with that one amazing song. And then they disappear, you know, or they live off
the next couple of years. and trying to Resuscitate it, but it's very hard to have that. second Uber hit. It's extremely hard, you know, and it's not a matter of just, well, let's just write one, you know, it's. It's hard,
Rae Leigh: Yes,
Matthew Donlevy: lucky them to even have it in the first place.
Rae Leigh: exactly, exactly. Enjoy it and run with it. and then keep going and have fun. It's, it's about building a whole bunch of little successes makes a career. Doesn't it? Yeah, you said that you were managing, you were doing some management, but that, that wasn't really for
you. What, what was the difference in that area of the business?
Matthew Donlevy: Well, see, as a publisher, I look after at 40 different, so we have a number of different, like hard rock X because of the nature of the label That,
I work with. You know, we have, like a breath, the, alpha Wolf make himself a very hard rock playing bands. But we also have, sorry, just to go into quickly the other part of the, my spiel, but we also have people like fatty lumps and who's a country actor.
And we have a number of screen composers, Tamara Premera, Denise Weeks who writes the master. Rafael may who writes an awful lot of incredibly interesting things. So we're pretty broad spectrum, but I, I work with people who can
Rae Leigh: be
Matthew Donlevy: self-contain and, uh, I just have to add, you know, parts into their career? So
they can maintain their career. I think it's very hard to take someone by the hand and take them all the way to the end of the path. And, you know, management's a little bit like that, you know, it's there a lot, it's a lot harder to manage a band than it is to publish a bed. You know what I mean? And, you know, for a manager and I think there's a real shortage of managers, like really good managers out there, that if your band's not playing, there's no dough.
I mean, you know, how many other businesses in the world where you're still doing the same amount of work, but you're not getting paid. That's not good. So anyway, just what it is, uh, as a.
Rae Leigh: with COVID
HUD
Matthew Donlevy: Hmm, I'll Cove. It's been, it was terrible for so many, so many of my acts, like all of them had, you know, just before COVID or we had a whole bunch of different bands playing internationally, you know, like European tours, American tours, and just all stopped dead.
On the week of release, we had a Fannie alums and record. We had,
we had a couple of records all released within a week of, and you know, they fell apart, everyone dealt with it differently. And that was interesting observation for how people deal dealt with the COVID because some people saw it as an opportunity.
Like feting I love that. Of course. She drove the whole time, like she did online events. She was constantly interacting with her on her socials whenever she could play anywhere.
She.
Rae Leigh: could wait anyway.
Matthew Donlevy: She's a machine that woman, and well, As soon as we came out. they will have a, she'd have a whole bunch of gigs. She's also a promoter of ourselves. And, she was
Rae Leigh: So,
Matthew Donlevy: an inspiration to how you can do business during difficult times. And to be truthful, there was not anyone, even in the same league as her in, regarding,
into the COVID times, because, you know, if you're a rock band or if you're, obviously screen composers were different because they could still continue to work.
Although there wasn't that much television production going on at the time, and kind of play if you gotta to go in, you can't
play, you know? Um, but she would figure out ways and keep on, keep the momentum going. And, it was quite special to see how an extraordinary
Rae Leigh: an extraordinary operator
Matthew Donlevy: But now, you know, But now we're backing out again.
of course, make him suffer over in America right now, playing, apple have just finished too rough with Polaris national tour and they're heading off to America again to go and play over there.
So we, a lot of our bands are out and playing again, all of our screen composers are well and truly, know, nose to the grindstone sort of stuff. So that's exciting. it has. It has indeed.
Rae Leigh: really good. The film industry has gone crazy. Well, the
Matthew Donlevy: Well, well, there's a voracious appetite for material right now, you know, and this is where it's, it's interesting and tricky as well, because you want to be part of that.
And, there are many, many opportunities, you know, programs that have been done, American programs that have been done. I had it up here in Australia. You know, the elvis movie was done that here, as we both know the, Yeah, there is just so many
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: activity and you're not going to just get
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: on it. It's just that, but you might be
Rae Leigh: in Sydney.
Matthew Donlevy: that's right. That's right. And you know, it's amazing how much TV production we can even appear in it, is available. But I mean, you don't just get walked into an Elvis movie and get these song plays because that's not the nature of this, but there's a lot of television that's requiring music right now,
that's always exciting.
Rae Leigh: I have had the conversation with someone not on the podcast, but about libraries and I guess, with sinking, having to compete with those online libraries, you know, being so cheap and affordable versus you, more independent stuff. What, how
Matthew Donlevy: Is there a ways,
Rae Leigh: that? Do you have, yeah,
Matthew Donlevy: yeah, there are ways. I mean, there are a number of background library records where you pay like a flat fee of 1500, 2,003,000 bucks. And if you're a production company, it's an all you can eat situation
and you know, so you can get the master rights and the publishing rights from a big online database.
And you can put in like keywords into your search engine, like a positive uplifting and purple, and that'll bring up a whole bunch of songs that? will be positive, you know? And they are fantastic because if I say, if you're in a production company who are doing a whole bunch of different things, it's easy, cheap, and painless, but if you want something individual, because you know, the same tracks could be used for a whole bunch of different things.
So you may hear the same song and a whole bunch of different TV productions to get a
composer, to do a yeah. Get a composer to do something special. It doesn't have to cost an awful lot. And. There's tons of composers out there who are willing to work right now,
Rae Leigh: yeah,
Matthew Donlevy: always. And you know, it's an exciting time for that to be truthful.
Rae Leigh: I think it is as well. I think it's great to see people working together and seeing the different art forms. You know, I love seeing film and music come together cause it just makes such a massive difference. Um, and it's seamless. Like most people don't understand, you know, how, how much, like if, unless you've studied it or you've really looked at it, you don't realize how much the music in a, in a show or a movie is having an
impact on the story that's being.
Matthew Donlevy: Absolutely critical. I mean, I always use the example of, I'm sorry. Use the example of a master chef, where it's just a bunch of people walking around, talking about their dish, you know, and if it wasn't the music, how would I say when someone's presenting a dish to the. All of the suspense drama, all of the emotion is actually being given to you by the music and not by the visual images.
It's just some person bringing up some Vegemite sandwich, to a bunch of people standing there, you know, like it's important. And you know, the music will tell you whether it's, oh, no, is it, this is going to be terrible. It's going to be so embarrassing or, you know, it's going to be triumphant or it's going to be fantastic.
And then suddenly the judge will eat the Vegemite sandwich and say, this is the best Vegemite sandwich I've ever had in my life. And there's the relief music, or this is where the worst Vegemite
sandwich you've ever had. And there's your music. That'll tell you how disappointing everything is. yeah. Music is defining the whole, so that's
a, an extreme
Rae Leigh: I think you could do that to anything
like, literally, if you'd listened to any of your favorite TV shows or movies,
um, I reckon,
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Turn the sound off.
Rae Leigh: music and it's just, yeah. Yeah. Like you'll watch aliens in, laugh your ass off. If
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah, you do. It looks silly here otherwise, but if you, if you have a
good audio kind of component
under it it, it defines it.
Rae Leigh: it really does. And it's, it's very powerful stuff, which is why we do it and why it's, it's still there because we love our low emotional ups and downs and the drama and all that sort of stuff that we get from our entertaining
shows. You said you've got, you've got quite a wide range of people that you work with.
What's, what's the benefit for you being a publisher and having sort of, you know, hard rock bands versus, you know, you country Fannie lumsden, and
Matthew Donlevy: Uh,
Rae Leigh: poses.
Matthew Donlevy: Everyone has cycles and you don't know what the cycle is. You know, for example, a band has singles and an album, and that a cycle lasts for a certain amount of time. And with a publisher, you have to have someone who's in cycle at all points to keep the activity, going to keep the money coming in the door, because it's a, like a band we'll have,
a cycle of releasing material and there'll be performance income, and hopefully some mechanical income, maybe some touring income.
And, but at some point they'll stop and rest for six to 12 months just to recover, and maybe write some more songs. And so we have to have a whole bunch of different things on the go. at all points. Some labels like specialized, like my, my label cooking. Well, they have that, although they do have Fannie, they do have an awful lot of hard.
Ex, because that's the nature of the guys who run it. But the publisher, you know, if a song is written by
a bunch of school kids And it's successful, we'll publish is Richard in that we don't have to be called to be, we want the activity more than we want to be the cool, you know, doesn't have to define everything
Rae Leigh: yeah, he wants, you want the people that have got stuff going
on so that you can be working on that
Matthew Donlevy: always. and that's great. Like there's not, not everyone works
all the time. You know, everyone has down times. So we have to have things on the go at all points to keep everything moving forward during while some of the other acts are injuring down.
Rae Leigh: yep. And you mean downtimes as in like
they're
Matthew Donlevy: As in not doing much. Yeah, Yeah. No, that working, perhaps just taking a bit of time off or, you know, having A bit of a break from the whole business time. And it's different for like pro writers for writers always have to be churning, but, um, bands have they have cycles and, you have to know and respect what the part of the cycle is, you know, and everyone has a different cycle as well.
Like Fanny cycle has been quite remarkable. Like it went coming back to Fannie, but
she's, uh, an ideal, you know,
truly she's
an ideal. Yeah. Well, she's
not, you know, it's,
Rae Leigh: I
Matthew Donlevy: I don't wanna say it's a publisher. Oh, you should.
Rae Leigh: I haven't ever on the show.
Matthew Donlevy: Tell me tell me when I'll make sure she gives you a call some point, because I think
she'd be happy to talk. She's an ambassador appar ambassador to, but she just, her, the nature of her cycle is, so we had an album out of, beginning of COVID, which was what, 2020. And she's finishing off the last of the shows for that album, over the next couple of months. Now that's almost over two years cycle, know? And how did you do that?
Well, she was clever about it.
Rae Leigh: of COVID though?
Matthew Donlevy: Yes, yes, of course it was, but it was also extended because she did, She had an album
which was great by produced by Matt, Phil, and, recorded by herself. and she has a self-contained show that travels around, I'll ask them dusty style, but,
Rae Leigh: uh,
Matthew Donlevy: versions of she did a release, a vinyl release for her versions of her own songs, which again, gave her a nine. Period where the, album suddenly,
Rae Leigh: where the,
Matthew Donlevy: And so she's finishing off the last of that touring over two and a, half years from when it all started. I love that.
Rae Leigh: yeah, that's a, that's a great big cycle.
Matthew Donlevy: It's a hard cycle though. Cause she's, she's a very, very hard worker, like a really hard worker, and you know,
most bands can't do that. Yeah. And a mum was. Yeah. And you know, that's the thing that I always find remote. How does she do live shows and babysit? You know, I mean,
Rae Leigh: And she does a blogging and I mean she's
Matthew Donlevy: well, she does that on the road while they're going from location to location, but you know, how do you look after kids as well as perform live? I don't know, You know, sometimes she does
Rae Leigh: But that's
Matthew Donlevy: and hopefully good support around her as well. But yeah, there you go.
Rae Leigh: I think it's important for women to to not take on the risk, the sole responsibility of child caring and raising, like it takes a village to raise children. That's my
theory. And then my children are definitely better off having other more sane, representatives in very muddled.
I love my kids, but, I think they needed if they, if they were fully, like I would, if I was the only influence in my children's lives like that, it would be a certain level of messed up that would be passed on that. You know, they need to have other people
that have different life. Yeah. They need a village.
They need different influences in their life. Yeah. And, and, you can't just stop living your life, just for you. There are other people around doesn't mean we don't have responsibilities, but,
that's my theory. And like, you know,
Matthew Donlevy: And people can make it
look.
Rae Leigh: lot of judgment. You can make
anything work.
Children are not an excuse. I think a lot of people use
them as an excuse, but they're really on an excuse for anything. You just got to keep going forward and enjoy your life and, and do what cause it's a monkey see monkey do with kids. And, um, that's what I tell people anyway, to do what you do, not what you say.
to say that because I used to be personal. I used to be a personal trainer and I had a lot of moms that would come to me and their kids were older and they'd finally had all this time because their kids are at school and they're like, oh, I haven't eaten well or exercise for five, six years. And and I tell them, it's like, well, when you say what a daughter, I said, when your daughter grows up and has kids, do you want her to do what you've done?
You know, do you want her to sacrifice herself, not exercise and not eat well and you know, binge eat and things like that. And sacrifice her time for her child. And they're like, oh no, I don't want to. It was like, well, if you don't show her a different way, that's exactly what she's going to do. You know?
And it's, it's actually more motivating, I think, for mums to remember that what you do is what your children will most likely are going to
do. That's what motivated me.
I
Matthew Donlevy: Well, and that worked, didn't it.
Rae Leigh: yeah, it did.
I, worked my butt off,
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. And you manage
you manage your career at the same time, so can be done.
Rae Leigh: absolutely. And yeah. And you just yeah. Have fun. Alright.
I've kind of lost a bit of where we were talking in, why we
got into a funny
Matthew Donlevy: I'm sorry. I, I I, take a division path
sometimes and there's probably put you off
Rae Leigh: tangents.
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Andrew sift does talking with tangents or something like
that. I don't know if he's still doing that podcast, but it was, it was fun. But I mean, you, you, you, you, you worked. Publishing and record labels. You went into management, you had, you said you had a bit of a break and I am curious as to, did something
happen where you just got burnt out for a little bit for yourself? We need to take
Matthew Donlevy: I think everyone needs to take a bit of a break as well. I mean, I I'd been working since I left high school and, when I say a break, it wasn't a couple of months, but, I think everybody needs a mental margarita for a short while.
You know, being a nine to fiver and, my whole career, it was just like, you just have to take some time but, you know, I I'm lucky enough that I'm still nine to five, but I worked from home and, Christmas cooking while are down in Melbourne and
Melbourne's a lovely place to visit, but I don't want to live there. And I don't want to go to an off. oh, there you go. Watch for shows.
Rae Leigh: Hmm,
Matthew Donlevy: There you go.
Rae Leigh: no, no. I'm reading, some management and, another meeting with a few people hoping to do some songwriting actually as well.
Matthew Donlevy: All right. Good luck with that. So no, no good luck with that. That's exciting. You know, uh, it's,
it's what our artists should be doing is moving around and writing songs
with people simple as that. So, yeah, I don't want to, yeah, that's right. But I don't want to be stuck in a nine to five office again.
I don't think that's, I think after COVID we suddenly realized that's not necessary anymore. That's not what happens and what's good for people as well.
Because you have to remember. I was, well I guess the people in your podcast are all small businesses, um, and how you run your small businesses, probably the most important part about how you figure out your plans for your career.
One of the women I work with is a folk actor called condition bestseller. And an aria award many years ago for this female choir thing called joys of the women, which was a Fantastic.
finals TV show at a movie as well. And she's a small business now. Unfortunately, she hasn't been doing much over the last couple of years, but she travels, she has a car that her business operates if she was to drive or she flies up, you know, her business base or that part of the phone is paid for by the work she turns up and does gigs, she has stopped.
With her at all points. So people who want an emotional attachment to the event. Yeah. Merge
it, physical product as well. Because of the nature of folk, they tend to like physical products and,
she runs a small business, you know, and she, it just so happens that she performed music as well. But How?
I try to continue to keep pushing her is that she's a smaller business operator and she has to do certain things to maintain her small business.
And, um, she's very good at that. she's a fantastic. singer, great songwriter. And she's a choir master. She does a lot of calls as well, but she keeps on
re-doing material and she can keep on paying. She can still be a full-time professional songwriter, musician. I mean, and that's the thing in itself, I think, to be honest, a full-time musician somewhere else.
Rae Leigh: Less. That's my goal. I want enacting, but I mean, you know, like, and finding what gets you up in the morning and what gets you going and what, what takes that passion bucket for you? I mean that for me anyways, like w w what is it about this industry that gets you out of bed in the morning? That's kept you in the industry for so long?
Do you, I mean, do you know who, who you are as a person and music, business professional? What is it
that has kept you around for so long?
Matthew Donlevy: I like it simple as that I like, I love music. I mean, it's funny talking about my hard rock bands. I, I went to the, the round house at Sydney uni and saw alpha Wolf play. And, I was looking at another band, AB affluent. The headline of course, was Polaris. And. I'm a Miskin doozy as though I'm the oldest guy in the room, but I loved the show.
I really, really loved it. You know, it was fun and funny. And, you know, there was all that hard rock kind of mushing and, people doing, being thrown around which I don't participate in. Cause I'm always getting on my break, a hip. But, I like being there. It's fun. and I love the energy and I like seeing people perform.
I love the performance component to it. I think it's really important. And that's one of the things that keeps me going because I enjoy being in this business. That's one of the things I
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: truly like.
Rae Leigh: It's fun. Right?
Matthew Donlevy: Hmm. Yeah. I think it'd be awful to do something you didn't, you're only doing it just for the money. I think that'd be hard. so you know, and one thing about
the music business, you're not going to get rich unless you're Uber successful. So you do it because you
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Matthew Donlevy: and you enjoy it and it makes you
Rae Leigh: do it for them. I mean, you know, if you want to do it for the money to go be a stockbroker or something, you know, like go,
I don't know, work in money. If you love money, go work in banks. If you love music, work in music,
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Yeah. And if you love creative people, that the other thing, that's also the benefit of my job as well. The people I work with and deal with, they're interesting people, they're very interested in some writers,
some of the most eccentric bunch of people you'll ever meet. And I think that's quite charming to be honest and everyone's different and they all have their own different parts and parcels, but that's part of the charm of dealing with people who don't look at the world in a
traditional way. I guess they have a different view as
Rae Leigh: that's why.
Matthew Donlevy: world.
Rae Leigh: I think that's one of the reasons I like this podcast. And I really enjoyed talking to songwriters, and people who are in the music industry for that reason is they're not boring. They're, they've got an interesting story. They've thought about the word in a different way. And that inspires my curiosity to try and see the world a little bit through someone else's eyes as well, especially when I'm talking to someone from a different culture or different country.
Like talking to anyone from America at the moment, it's like guns is a big issue. I'm like I'm in Australia. I forget how grateful I am that we don't really have guns. It's just not here.
Matthew Donlevy: yeah, yeah.
Rae Leigh: God, you
Matthew Donlevy: And these are the abortion laws, but we have this, we have that too, you know, that's a thing. That's an
Rae Leigh: oh my goodness. Yeah. And look, it's a bigger country, so there's always going to be more people, more controversy. We have a lot of our own problems here. But it also is beautiful to find the differences also highlights the similarities in our humanity. And I think music is one of the ways that we get to communicate with the world, our humanity and who we are and our culture, and not just with people right now, but with people of the future, you know, which is just so incredibly cool.
You think about all the people that have influenced like Elvis, he's got this movie coming out, you know, he's not around, but, but everyone in the world's going to still know who he is
and what he's done and, and everyone else around him. Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: And it, and it's the whole thing about it as well.
Music is a universal language. You know, you can go and, sit, you can go and basket in the middle of anywhere in the world. And people will be interested to listen to you you may be at the wrong lane, different language, but people will always be interested in what you have to say, musically, because that's
just the nature of it.
Rae Leigh: That's funny because I'm really good at maths. And people used to say, mass is a universal language,
but you definitely can't say that mass is that interesting. So
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: the key to,
Matthew Donlevy: Put a hat down in the middle of a square and say, Hey, what's the square root of 47. This is my See how much you get in your hat, but sit
down there and sing a song,
Rae Leigh: I quit. They don't. Yeah. So music, music and mass makes me feel good. I don't know why, like, and I know that there are people out there who are good at music and maths, and then this there's gotta be some sort of correlation between the two. I don't know what they are, but
that's the way my brain ticks, but it, no, it's really good.
Matthew Donlevy: Oh, there is a correlation now just to go and let part
drama's good at programming, for example, because they, they got the NIMBY not so great calculation, but they're good at rhythm and meth, you know, like if you want to get, make a good arrangement, get a drummer to do the arrangement because I understand format.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: an aside.
Rae Leigh: maybe, no, maybe that's what it is. I did drumming in high school and like, yeah, that's probably one of my strengths is in melody and format and structure and trying to get things on the rhythm. But yeah, it's interesting. And we've always got to be questioning ourselves in that. What would you say is it, it went, you know, the one piece of really good advice that you've been given in this, in the business side of the industry that you'd like to share with us.
Matthew Donlevy: I guess one of the things that if you'll love it, keep doing it. That's one of the things that's really important that if you're enjoying yourself, keep doing it and go hard. I mean, one thing that I do suggest if you do want to become a manager or become publisher, go as hard as he can, because he can't be a passenger anymore.
You can't just hope for the best.
I guess I'd even parallel that to artists and songwriters, there's only one thing you'll never, ever get discovered in your own room. You have to get out there and drive. And, my suggestion to the writers in this podcast is get out there and start driving, you know, get out there and be seen, do something that can help.
I heard an interesting story the other day about the kid Leroy and, a great, a great, a really good singer, a great artist and a great producer writer, songwriter. He used to go out when he was very, very young. He used to go and hang out in front of hotels to do mixed, give mixed tapes to famous people.
So he felt like he was suddenly part and parcel of in now that can be seen as stalking, but that can also be seen as hustling. He's been hustling since he was very young and now the guys were 18 or 19 or 20. It's very, very young. And but now he's one of the biggest actor in the world. So he drove very hard. And I think that's an extreme about having to go and hang out in front of hotels and try to give recording artists, your mix tape, but you can't sit and hope that it's going to come to You
You have to get out there and shake it a little bit. Otherwise. Yeah,
Otherwise you won't be
found
there's too much other noise and activity and flashing lights and
out there to be S to be found because people don't find things unless there's something serious
that make it find things.
So
Rae Leigh: Are you going to
Matthew Donlevy: I guess my business thing is dry. Go hard, go as hard as if you're going to do it, go as hard as a kid, you know, because, and you know, it, it should be fun if it's not fun to do it, but go as hard as
you can as my.
Rae Leigh: Have fun go hard and party hard.
Is that what you're saying?
Matthew Donlevy: Well, no, I don't even say party hard. You know, I'm a little past that a bit now, but I do say go hard. If you're going to go, we can manage someone. If you can publish someone would
go as high
as again, because it's worth it. You know? And the absolute worst case scenario is it doesn't work out, but at least you'll be
confident in yourself that we'll
let at least we gave everything for that.
And I,
say that to the same as my songwriter
Rae Leigh: yeah,
Matthew Donlevy: hard.
Rae Leigh: yeah,
yeah, Right. With as many people as you can
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Get out there and, yeah.
Rae Leigh: do,
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. I think that's right. I think having just right with everybody, but go as hard as you can for your own career, because there's not too many other people.
If you don't believe it as the artist or the
songwriter that nobody else will.
Rae Leigh: yeah, absolutely. And you just gotta get, keep trying. I'm a big, like, I mean, I dunno, I, I don't want to put all my chips in one basket. It's just like, get out there and have fun, like you said, and do something that aligns with your passion. But do lots of it
with lots of different
people. And sometimes it'll work and sometimes it won't, but I imagine sales for eight years in marketing.
And I definitely learnt that. I think it was like one in 10 people will say yes, but you've got to, you got to get those nine nos before you get the yes. And it's about changing that mental attitude of all right. Well, I'm scared of every, all those nine rejecting me. It's like I had, you know, you have to re retrain your brain to be like every note get excited because that's one more, no closer to the next.
Yes. Do you know what I mean? Like you just, it's the way you look at it. And doing modeling and acting, you know, I had to get so used to people saying no to me, because I wasn't the right look or the right size or the right hair color or the right eye color, you know, it's not personal at all. How can it be?
They
don't look at you for more than two minutes, but yeah, exactly. It's not personal. It wasn't right. It just, wasn't a good fit and you have to just go that's all right. The next door is gonna open up and you got to keep asking. And one of my favorite pictures of. Picture of the guys who are mining.
Have you seen that one? And it's like, there's a guy really hungry and just digging, digging, digging, and you get to S like in the picture, you can see where the gold is and one person's going. And then the other person underneath it's like, kind of gives up when they're an inch away from hitting the gold.
And they're just walking back saying, it's useless. It doesn't work. I'm digging for no reason. And sometimes you can feel like you're mining dirt constantly, but you got to dig through the dirt before you find the gold,
Matthew Donlevy: I think that's a very inspirational
passage.
Rae Leigh: God, I sound like my dad now. If, you could work with any catalog in the world or do anything and collaborate with anyone in the world, who would it be and why that are alive? I have to say,
Matthew Donlevy: Um,
Rae Leigh: here's your fav,
I guess in your industry, you
can work with people
whose
Matthew Donlevy: yeah, it's funny because I, you know, one of the things when I was a peer,
Rae Leigh: Um,
Matthew Donlevy: There was a song called blame it on your heart, which is one of my favorite country songs in the course of the blame, it on your heart is blame it on your lie and cheat and loaded, beaten two times double dealing main street and love and heart.
I love that chorus. It was cost and the guy called Harland Howard. So I chased down Harland Howard. I got a publishing deal with him. And, while he was still, you know, he was still alive back in those days. And you can now I'd love to work on the Beatles catalogs again, cause it's absolutely magnificent all the rolling stones.
They're never going to come available, but,
but you know, in the music publishing business, you can actually, if you really, really, really, really likes someone and can give them enough enthusiasm about why they should come with you, it's not impossible that you can work with people.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay. All right. Cool. Sound like amazing. I'm
Matthew Donlevy: I mean, but then, you know, I'd love to work with dosha cat for
example. Cause I think she's amazing. I I'd love to, you know, work with, uh, Olivia Rodriguez. Cause I think she's done one of the best pop records in the ages, you know? There's a whole bunch of people who I like contemporary currently, but, there's a bunch of screen composers I'd love to work with as well.
You know, there's a bunch of other bands that I'd like to work with because you know, they're amazing. It's all different.
Rae Leigh: Awesome. Cool. And what, what is it that you're, you'll do it. You, you reckon your, your next steps are
gonna be, or what is it that,
Matthew Donlevy: I just put it off.
Rae Leigh: a lot in
your,
Matthew Donlevy: Well, I do teach, I do, although I'm not teaching this trimester, uh, I work at straightness shooting music, teaching publishing. Cause so that's one of my ways I like to think that I'm giving back, uh, No, I've, I've got a couple of deals out there at the moment of deals on the table.
There's always things on the go as a publisher, you have to have a whole bunch of new material churning because you know, some of the other stuff that you've bought along the way didn't work out and you can move, you know, let it go or
try to resurrect it. But Trent Jillian's, you know, that I tried that didn't work out.
So I'm constantly on the lookout for new and interesting things as well. So there's always onwards and
upwards.
Rae Leigh: Yep. Constantly just going to find fun, new stuff that you think you
can work with and you like, and
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah, and it is,
it's a working relationship as well, because, you know, I always say this with music publishers. Yeah. If, if you know, there's some writers out there are looking for a music publisher that they want to work with they have to like the person that they're working with and they think they can make a difference because a music publisher, if you did an administration deal with Sony cooking, vinyl, cobalt, and BMG, for example, we would collect the same amount of money for it and say, let's use dosha cap internationally.
We'd collect it within 10 bucks, all of us. So there's not that much difference than how much money we would collect. It's bad. The value added stuff that working with a publisher could bring, like if you worked at Sony, you would have access to a whole bunch of their bigger writers, but you'd be also one of the thousands of writers that are in their books.
If you go with an independent. You wouldn't have that same access to all of those big sunny writers, but people will return your call all the time, you know, and they'll be far more focused on you because there's not that many people who are banging on the
door. So
it's about the sort of relationship you want to have with your publisher, I guess
is
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Matthew Donlevy: of that.
Rae Leigh: Do you want to be seen
and a part of something rather than a number?
Matthew Donlevy: Well, and also, you know, like for
example, a number of bigger acts, you know, like the black eye piece that it care about would publish their visits and things that are collected, you know, at some point people don't, it doesn't matter for the publisher, just as long as they're doing their business, you know, the songs will sell themselves.
Doesn't really matter. But if you're an up and coming or you're working a working artist, pulps or whatever, then you want an active
partner to work with. I would have thought.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Well, I mean, from my point of view, as someone who's just. I've been doing it for a few years, but just starting really, you want to work with people who know people in the industry and can fast track that networking process of finding people that are going to be good for you to work with and getting better material out there and creating better opportunities, which comes from who, you know, and who you meet and
Matthew Donlevy: yeah.
But getting better material that's up to the writer themselves. That's I always say that, you know, as a publisher, we can walk to the door of any co-writing opportunity. And, you know, if I can't find out the songwriter and Australian songwriter via the publishing network that I have for say an artist to work with, then I'd be surprised.
But we publish your own and walking through the door, it's up to the, the artists or the songwriters to do the, to take the next step and
actually made it, make it happen.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And that's where it's.
Maybe it can be it's it's it's, it's, it's the introduction to get that co-wrote because I reckon, I mean, if you're a good enough writer, obviously everyone's got their own strengths, but you can always bring something to a room. And I think that's why I liked the Nashville style of having three people in a room or more, you know, cause, cause there's more chance that you're gonna have more experience in life experience to draw and to create that song and, and get the best out of whatever it's going to be. And
Matthew Donlevy: Also the national experience is something.
Rae Leigh: chorus.
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah, but that's, that's a really important thing for the songwriters. And there's one thing about the Nashville writers, you know, they're tough. They're really tough. You know, they say going to start at nine, they're starting at nine, you know, Uh,
if one thing that's important about a Nashville songwriter is there'll be professional about the whole thing.
You know, they want the song, it's got to have a beginning, a middle and an end and they'll go through every single line to make sure it made sense. No, it's a, Terrick kind of, you know, kind of national side of the, the most pro writers in the world that most. And I look quite like that about them, you know, it's so.
yeah. I'm glad you had that
experience because it'll give you more of a regimen. Yeah, of
course. A lot.
I used to love it,
Rae Leigh: Yep. Uh, my goal is to get back there this year and get enough, maybe a few more songs, just to be able to get a full album of just
great songs together and hit it.
Matthew Donlevy: Well, there's plenty
of plenty of good songwriters out there looking
for
activities. You know, that's the thing about it. There's lots of great songs sitting in shelves and publishing companies all along the music row.
So keep that in mind too, you know, sometimes for an artist it's you just need the one vessel to get you started and the rest of your material can be dragged along by the one, the one song as well.
That's never untoward. I don't think, uh, to have someone
else's song
Rae Leigh: quite common.
No, not common, but I mean, I've noticed in just a few of the older artists that have had big careers, that the first song that they released that kind of got them. The name that they developed was actually not their song in the
first place.
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah, nothing I
Rae Leigh: that.
mean like they just, it was a cover?
No. Well, the honky tonk man with Dwight Yoakam,
that was his first big
hit, but it wasn't his song,
Matthew Donlevy: No,
but he had a nice career. It
so
Rae Leigh: but he had a great current sound, James blender WIA west, that wasn't his song. It was a cover, but that was his sort of breakout
song, single, you
Matthew Donlevy: it was his breakout. So I was going to took him to the place where he could, and he had good management around him and he could drive from there. you know,
he had an opportunity, there was a wide open road and he could
work from there. So, you know,
Rae Leigh: Yep.
All dreaming about that
Matthew Donlevy: to get started.
Rae Leigh: You've got to build the engine. That's what we have to do,
Matthew Donlevy: That's the hardest part.
Rae Leigh: so that we can near, but that's the fun part, I think, because it is a challenge. And if you like me, you like a good challenge and then you have fun with it. And then you look for the next challenge while you're driving the challenge that you just built anyway, that could go forever.
I've kind of asked, I think a fair amount of questions and we've covered a lot of information. Do you have anything else that
we haven't talked about that you'd like to share?
Matthew Donlevy: Not so much. I mean, I, sorry, I gave you
the lesson, you know, about these income streams of music, but, but you know,
that's
okay. One thing I
do want to say is as a, for all the songwriters who may be listening to this, go as hard as you can truly, there's a window. And you know, if your neighbor is someone who knows someone talk to your neighbor, if you know, you've got distant friends, it's completely okay to go to gigs and give people songs, or talk to them about their songwriting.
Go as hard as you can is my suggestion. That's all I really wouldn't leave. You know, if you're going to do it, go hard because if you're waiting back and trying to be cool, nobody will notice you or you'll be standing in the dark. But if you're the person who's out there trying to do
something, people will see you and
notice you.
Rae Leigh: I like that hustle and believe in what you, what you want and you're not stealing from anyone else, have you there's another parody. I think I learned from a thing where it was like, there's this as much money as there is in the ocean water in the ocean. Some people go down to the ocean to get water with a teaspoon. And some people go down with a gallon bucket
Matthew Donlevy: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Interesting analogy.
Rae Leigh: stealing. Well, I think for me anyway, it was like, oh, if I have, you know, two cars, then there's someone else out there in the world that doesn't have a car it's selfish. I only need one. So I should only have one, but it's like, actually there's, you know, there's more than enough.
Out there in the world for you and this space for you in the world. And maybe that's a female thing because as women, I feel like we kind of were brought up in my generation anyway, to not be seen, not be heard, be small, don't take up space, don't be a nuisance, you know? And that can be a mental thing
Matthew Donlevy: it doesn't strike me as you,
Rae Leigh: there's
Matthew Donlevy: that
Rae Leigh: no, I've I, you know, that was, had to, I had to do it 10 years of therapy to get over there. But,
Matthew Donlevy: Okay, fair
Rae Leigh: yeah, so, I mean, that's definitely a part of who I think my first life was. And I can, I, I understand that belief and it was hearing stories like that of like, actually it's okay to go out there and be heard and it's go to go out there and say, Hey, look what I've just written, check out this song,
see what happens. It's no harm. What was worst case scenarios is that no one likes it to know.
And it's just you, that likes it. It was like, well, it's the same as what it would have been if no one heard it anyway. So.
Matthew Donlevy: exactly right. That's exactly right.
Rae Leigh: Alright, thank you. You've given me so much of your time today, Matthew. I really appreciate it. So I'm going to put a blog together and information so that people can get in touch with you and check out where you're from and contact you on the description on the podcast songwritertrysts.com. And it'll also be in the description of this podcast on all of the podcast streaming platforms.
