#138 Jeff Cohen
Multi-award-winning songwriter/producer/publisher based in Nashville/London whose songs have appeared on over 20 million albums sold, over 10 million video games, and over 100 placements in TV/Film. See how Jeff started his career at age 34, leaving a good job and pay-check at BMI in New York for a full-time songwriting passion with only 16 songs that he felt were really good. Going against the odds and beliefs of those around him and he dived headfirst into the unknown and we are glad he did. This hilarious character is a gift to the music industry and his adventures are fun to listen to.
Jeff’s songs have been recorded by The Band Perry (Hit single/BMI Award - Postcard From Paris), Evan and Jaron(Hit single/BMI award - Crazy For This Girl), Big and Rich(Hit single/BMI award - Holy Water), Laura Bell Bundy(Hit single - Giddy On Up), RichieMacDonald of Lone Star(Hit single - I Turn To You), The Shires(Hit Singles - 1000 Hallelujahs and Daddy’s Little Girl), Ilse DeLange(Hit Single - Beautiful Distraction), Worry Dolls(UK Americana Awards Song Of The Year nominee - Endless Road), Sugarland, Josh Groban, Macy Gray, Nick Lachey, Teitur, Doc Walker, Mandy Moore, Mickey Guyton, Nikhil D’Souza, MarcBroussard, Spin Doctors and many more. His songs have been featured in movies such as Sisterhood of the Traveling Pants, My Super Ex-Girlfriend, Stuart Little 2, Aquamarine, Grandma’s Boy, and TV shows such as Jack and Jill (theme), I Married A Princess (theme), The Exes (theme), Dawson’s Creek, Party of Five, One Tree Hill, The Simpsons, Saturday Night Live and many more. He is also the founder and songwriter of the critically acclaimed band Pancho's Lament. In a previous life, Jeff was a music executive at BMI working with such talent as Jeff Buckley, Kara DioGuardi, Lisa Loeb, Joan Osborne, Ani DiFranco, Spin Doctors, and many more.
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Transcript
Rae Leigh: Welcome to a songwriter tryst with, Jeff Cohen. How are you?
Jeff Cohen: I am quite well. How are you?
Rae Leigh: I'm good. Thank you so much for joining me and all the way from where are you today?
Jeff Cohen: It's really good question. This week, I'm in Nashville. Next week. I'll be in Los Angeles
and then three weeks from now in New York.
Rae Leigh: Wow. So you get around a lot. Is that normal for you or are you just too?
Jeff Cohen: No, no, it's just work. I'm trying to get as much work in while I can right now. And just in case they kind of halt the work for a bit.
Rae Leigh: Are you thinking they might go back into a lockdown or something or,
Jeff Cohen: Things continue the way they are here. I don't think it go into a lockdown. I just don't think it will be.
I don't think people will be taking as many meetings, so I don't think it will be worth making the trips. I can do it over here.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, fair enough. Okay, cool. I like to start this episode simply by getting you to introduce yourself, tell us a little bit about who you are, where you come from and how you got into songwriting.
Jeff Cohen: sure. Six feet. I'm an Aquarius. Is that what you mean like that
Rae Leigh: A little bit. I was like, and it's funny, everyone answers the question differently and that's what I like about it. So,
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't have hair. Let's see. I'm originally as born in Brooklyn, New York. And I grew up outside of New York city and then lived in New York city for 20 years. And then I've been in Nashville for almost 10
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Jeff Cohen: yeah, so, and I also pre COVID. I was working in London every other month in England.
Rae Leigh: Wow. So what were you working on?
Jeff Cohen: I work with many, artists over there and I had, yeah, just on a bunch of different records over in england. It's
Rae Leigh: As a producer.
Jeff Cohen: I wrote the songs for many of them. I published some and wrote for them and yeah, just all the above. I did produce actually three of them.
Rae Leigh: I saw that you've done a fair amount, but you do songwriting producing. And publishing, which one of those would you say is your main thing or do you just do all of it all the time and
Jeff Cohen: Oh, I think, I think songwriting is, is my true love. I did the publishing company just to kind of diversify a bit and put a few more options out there.
Rae Leigh: Where did it start for you? When did you write your first song? When did you, did you start playing any instruments
Jeff Cohen: well, I was a very late starter. I didn't start professionally until I was almost 34,
Rae Leigh: Really, and you grew up in New York.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I mean, my dad was a teacher. I didn't know, was a music industry at all. No one in my family was, I mean, my dad played piano when he was a kid. You know, my sister took piano lessons. I used to sit in front of my desk when I was doing my homework.
And in between subjects, I would take a tape recorder out. Sing into it and make up lyrics and write them out and make album covers and pretend I was in a band, even though I didn't play an instrument and probably whatever girl I had a crush on. I mean, it would be like this song was called Julie or like this song is Sherry.
I mean, yeah. They were absolute, truly terrible. But it was just basically whoever. You, I was afraid to ask, ask out and how, what was I really going to do? When I was 13, 14, I was going to ask him to the movies, but, you know, I just probably started doing that. And then when I was teaching basketball at a camp to the other kids, there, there was a talent show and one kid played bass, one play drums, and they knew that I wrote, the camp newsletter and they asked if I wrote.
Like poems or lyrics and stuff. And I said, well, I do write lyrics a little. So they said you want to. A song for us and then you can sing it. So I did that and we played the town show and I wrote a song called road to the sun. And I like put in my own drum fills. I'm like, Hey man, at this point, Bass you stop and drums go BA BA, BA, BA, BA, you know, like that.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: they're looking, they're looking at me like really? Okay. It worked and we won the contest and then after the contest, all the girls went up to the bass player.
Rae Leigh: Really?
Jeff Cohen: yeah, so I went home and I tend to my dad. I'm like, I want to learn how to play bass.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay.
Jeff Cohen: And he said, he said, he said, maybe you should learn guitar first.
So, so I took, I took a few lessons and but I had a job and I was playing on the school team. So I didn't really keep the lessons going. But what I did was after the first lesson, I think I was 16 or 17. The teacher taught me C and G.
And when he came back the next week, instead of learning the lesson, I wrote three songs on C and G and he basically said to me, he goes, okay, look, I'm just going to get out of your way and just show you, I'm going to teach you chords and you do it every week.
Rae Leigh: Wow. I love that. I love that. I've been learning some new voicings on the guitar, like, you know, above and beyond the basic open chords. And every time I learn a new voicing, I brought a new song or two, my teachers been saying the same thing. He's like, dude, I've got to start showing you
Jeff Cohen: Yeah,
Rae Leigh: but it's inspirational. Isn't it. You get a new sound and it's a new feeling. And then you're like, oh, that, that deserves a song.
Jeff Cohen: I remember the first time that I went to Australia. I remember I spoke at Australian music week in Sydney. I remember they put me up at a hotel on Pitt street and I was downtown. And I remember walking around the Harbor and everything. And this is backwards. I didn't have a cell phone, those payphones.
I remember going to a payphone and calling my mom and dad. And I said, if this was within a seven, eight hour flight of New York, I would just buy a place and not come back and just come visit you guys.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah. I think a lot of people do that. If you've been to Australia, I find it hard to know when I've gone to other places. They're beautiful, but I come back and I'm like, why would, why would you leave this place other than the holiday? But
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, Australia's amazing. And the other thing that's really fun is I've traveled all over the world often. And back when I was in my teens, when I was traveling, I knew every city we went to, anytime we saw Australians, we're like, let's go hang out with them.
It was just always going to be a fun night.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. we definitely know how to have fun I think we don't don't take life too seriously. He's kind of, I think an Australian motto.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, I met many Australians on the road and actually two of my long-term girlfriends happened to be three actually. Well, two long-term, but one short-term, but happened to be Australia and one from hunters hill outside of Sydney. And the other was from Brisbane.
Rae Leigh: no, there you go. It wasn't me, but yeah, no,
Jeff Cohen: Nope. It was not yet.
Rae Leigh: no. Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: Fine. I wasn't going to bring that up if you didn't.
Rae Leigh: Okay. Now, just want to clarify that for anyone. It's not how we know each other. So let's, let's talk about your songwriting. So, you're obviously a natural tan, you're learning guitar and you're writing songs and you did it without even realizing that you were doing it. When was the moment for you that you go, oh, there's a car, there's an industry.
There's a career. I could actually make a living, writing songs and doing what I love. What was there a story behind that? You said 34.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. When I was 23, so I was I'd studied pre-law and I decided I didn't want to do that. And I took a job just at a, at a store in a, in a buying like a good management program, just to try to get business experience and make money. Be able to move, you know, live on my own. And I realized if I'm going to work 80 hours a week, six days a week, I might as well do something.
I actually like, so I thought I was 23, almost 24. And I thought, well, I really am not a good guitar player. I suck at singing. So I think I could write songs, but I don't think you can make a living doing that. I didn't know. My family were all teachers and, you know, accountants, we didn't know there was a music industry, but I thought I knew what was good.
So I wrote to every record label in New York city and try to try to be an ANR. I wanted to, I said, I'll, if there's any secretary jobs. Okay. Uh, I'll please consider me. And, uh, nobody wrote me back.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Jeff Cohen: So I went to a temp agency and I got a job in the licensing collection department of a company called BMI, which I had never heard of,
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Jeff Cohen: I guess, for everyone listening in Australia, similar to APRA.
Rae Leigh: APRA. Yep.
Jeff Cohen: And, I work basically inputting in a computer all day and getting someone's coffee. Answering phone calls and typing letters. And about six months in, I started going out every single night to go see music and just learn. I was living in New Jersey at the times. I couldn't afford New York city. So I was about a 40 minute bus ride out of town.
And what happened was I went down to one of the guys who I saw working in the music.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: And I just said, Hey, look, I'm Jeff. I work upstairs. I go out every night to see bands. If you ever need any band scouted, or you have any extra paperwork, I can come down after I'm done upstairs at five. And if a job does open in the music department to be an assistant or a secretary, whatever, please let me know.
I'd love to interview for that.
And he looked at me and said, well, what are you doing to. And I gave him what I thought the right answer was. I said, you tell me, what am I doing?
And he said go to CBGBs, which was a club in New York city and see this band from Minnesota. And I said, yeah, Don, what time?
And he said, Diane, I said, he goes, do you need to be on a guest list?
And I said, Nope, Louise, who does the door? Hasn't had me pay in months. She knows I make $16,000 a year upstairs. And he's like, okay. So the next morning I got it. From I basically got in, in the morning, knocked on his door and he said, did you get to speak to the band? I said, actually, they're taking me for lunch.
Do you want to join us? And he just looked at me and he's like, why, why am I going to regret this? And six months later, I was his assistant. Then two years later, I was associate director two years later, director. And then a year after that, I was the senior director of the new York office.
Rae Leigh: That's insane all from not really even knowing that songwriting was a thing that you could, you know, do
Jeff Cohen: I wasn't songwriting at all.
Rae Leigh: no. Yeah. But working for BMI, like
Jeff Cohen: I was. able to, what I did was I went to off the beaten path places, and I was able to find a lot of bands before anyone else did, because I wasn't only going to CBGBs in the bitter end where the showcases were like there was a band called the spin doctors. I found them in a small blues bar.
There was a girl called nausea. Who was playing in a Louisiana restaurant, singing Janis Joplin covers. There was a girl named Lisa Loeb who is playing at a school coffee shop at her uni. There was a guy named Jeff Buckley, who I saw at a little Irish pub in the lower east side. And I just thought he was awesome.
And I'm like, man, you want to work together?
Rae Leigh: Wow. No way.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, we had Ani DiFranco. There was a girl named Cara DIA Guardia, who was a secretary at bill billboard magazine, who I met at a dinner and she gave me a cassette. I'm like, holy, you know, I'm not going to curse him on a podcast. I was like, you're amazing. Now you told me 15 years later, she'd be judge of American idol.
I would have not necessarily see that coming.
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Jeff Cohen: back then, I wouldn't even have known what American idol was because it hadn't existed. But I'm not surprised that you take her talent and her work ethic. I mean, to me, I've never seen anyone work so hard in my life and combine that with her talent.
If you know her, you should not be surprised. She's been so successful.
Rae Leigh: It's beautiful to hear that though. And it sounds like, you're a similar path, you're talented, but also worked very, very hard because that's what you love,
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I mean, I like to joke that, you know, I probably didn't work as hard as Kara, but the no one did. And, , I've managed to continue doing this now 20 years with the
limited talent that I have.
Rae Leigh: I love the story there that, you had your office job, but that you also, even when you weren't being paid, that's what you were doing anyway, you
Jeff Cohen: How was that? Every night. Yeah. And then, and then what happened was when I was 32, almost 33, I got, really inappropriately sick. And I had to take some time off from work. And while I was sick, I said to myself, you know, I love my job. I've got great family, great friends, and this job is great. Favorite time of the day is like midnight.
When I get home from seeing bands and I've got about a half an hour, an hour where I just take out the acoustic and I strum.
Rae Leigh: Hm.
Jeff Cohen: Taught myself, some finger picking just from listening to James Taylor and Paul Simon. I tried to figure out the boxer and basically I couldn't figure out what he was doing with the boxer.
And then Stevie Nicks landslide. I tried to figure those songs out and came up with my own kind of amalgamation of fingerpicking from that. And that's how I figured out how to do it. So. I just thought, you know what? I don't want to be 40 years old and never show anyone these songs because as one of the heads of BMI, my job was to help writers.
And my job was to find writers, make sure they get paid, make sure they get heard. And I didn't want to cross that line. I worked too damn hard for people to be like, Jeff's up there.
Hawkins his own stuff, all the, you know, screw that. So I said, if people are going to take me seriously as a songwriter, I have to dive in full speed.
Then I have to go all in and it's going to suck at first. And I'm going to give up a really nice salary and a lot of power, but, but I will earn it. From the ground floor and people will at least hopefully take me more seriously than hiding behind a desk and a six
figure salary. Okay.
Rae Leigh: That's so brave. Not a lot of people would take that jump from security, you know, into the unknown
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. Most people thought I was pretty stupid.
Rae Leigh: I'm sure you probably had those, those thoughts go through your head at some point.
Jeff Cohen: here's, here's the crazy thing. I remember waking up the morning after I quit. And the people at BMI could not be nicer. I mean, they offered me a promotion and they offered, you know, more and to keep me, and I said, guys, you could offer me $5 million a year in the president's job. My mind's made up and they were like, well, how can we help you?
And I said,
Rae Leigh: Oh
Jeff Cohen: Continue to invite me to your, your cocktail parties and continue to invite me to dinner when you, when you're going out with your wife, you know, and, and, and invite me and my girlfriend out to events. But I said, you know, not looking for special treatment, I'll earn this. And if I'm appropriate for something, call me.
And if I'm not, I'm not expecting any special treatment.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. That's beautiful. And that's and so then from there on you just started writing songs.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I mean, I remember the guy at BMI said to me, well, please tell me you have some cuts or some things lined up. And I remember saying, I think I have six really strong songs that I could start showing people. And he kind of looked at me like you are out of your mind. And I said to him, I'm going to get a song on TV, a song in a movie.
I'm going to get a song on the radio. I'm going to get a BMI award and I'm going to get a grip. And he goes, how long do you think that'll take? I go, I'm not putting a time limit
on it.
Rae Leigh: That's a good answer. Yeah. And how long did it.
take you? I mean, cause you've had quite a few BMI awards now.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, I've been very lucky. I remember what I won. My first BMI award is about two years later and I remember the same guy Dell. The president was giving the award out and I got called up on stage and he put his arm around me and . He just whispered in my ear, he goes, you motherfucker.
It was great. It was awesome. they looked at me and he goes, I love you, man. He goes, I'm so
happy
for you.
Rae Leigh: Oh, that's good. And it's that thing because so many people want to, but we fear that we won't, we won't make it. And so then we don't and fear stops. So many of us from chasing our dreams to see someone so close to us to do what you.
did, that's inspiring.
Jeff Cohen: Well, you know, the crazy thing is. To me. I had a one-year plan, a three-year plan, a five-year plan, a seven year plan. And then I said, you know, what, if I epically fail, then either I'll find something else to do, or, you know, beg back into the industry. And in the back of my mind, I'm like, I never had any plans on failing.
It just never, it never crossed my mind that I wasn't going to succeed. In fact, the strangest thing was it didn't feel that strange. I mean, yes. Was I eating a lot more toast in Turkey and you know, maybe a slice of pizza. And I remember when I started doing the TV shows and I started getting placements on Fridays.
We used to get the phone call from Dawson's Creek if they were using a song or not. And Jack and Jill also. So any Friday, what I did get a placement, I would treat myself, there was this little friend. Small kind of cafe bring your own wine. But they had wonderful like salads with grilled chicken. They had French onion soup.
They had like this really kind of small little steak fried, like a mini lunch size. It wasn't super, but it was very affordable, just incredible quality. And you know, on a weekend there'd be a line around the block to get in.
Rae Leigh: Yep.
Jeff Cohen: During the leak, you know, for one I would sneak in there and I treat myself to a proper meal.
I'd bring, bring the newspaper and I would just take an hour and I would reward myself with, with, with a nice meal. And it's funny because. I lived in the west village and almost all the time I would go in there and Gwenyth Paltrow is in there. Phillip Seymour Hoffman, Molly Ringwald, and Sheryl Crow. I'd see there now.
And then, but I'd always see Gwenyth Paltrow and Phillip Seymour Hoffman. And it got to the point where whenever I'd walk in, we'd notice each other and I would just kind of nod. And it was one of those like, like, you know, it's like, I know what you to
do,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: must be thinking.
How can this guy just be hanging out
and having lunch by himself
on a Friday? You
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: does, does he work? He must be some creative
also, but,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: so that was kind of this unspoken, like we never spoke to each other, but we'd always acknowledge each other. It was kind of
I kind of felt like I'm living the New York
life.
Rae Leigh: How romantic. That's so beautiful. And to see people like that just around, it must be so encouraging and inspiring to just see other people
Jeff Cohen: Th th they live down the street. Yeah. So,
Rae Leigh: yeah. That's that's.
Jeff Cohen: And then when Gweneth did try speaking to me, I right away, I said to her, listen, I'm no good for you, baby. Just be cool. And this is, this is not going to happen. I mean, look, I respect you. You're gorgeous, talented woman, but I'm just going to break.
I'm just going to break your heart quit. So just, you know, let me have my steak fried in peace and just, you
know, just think about what could be.
Rae Leigh: Well, like, that's very good of you. Lots of integrity. That
Jeff Cohen: I thought that was very noble to Sanford. I wanted to say for
the heartache.
Rae Leigh: That's that's so beautiful. I wish someone, some people had to save me the heartache, but sometimes we just gotta have the heart break just to know what it feels like,
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I mean, I cared for her as a human and I didn't want
to put her in that situation.
Rae Leigh: That's beautiful. So with your songwriting and with, with what you're doing now, is there a goal or mission behind your creativity and what you wanted to create in your three, seven year plan outside of just success in getting placements and radio and all that sort of stuff.
Is there something deeper in music that has always captured you that you kind of, I dunno, align with that you
Jeff Cohen: Well, yeah. The industry changed, you know, Two thousands. All of a sudden getting a song on a record or an album cut. Like for example, let's say you got a song on Delta, go drums record. Okay. Back in like 2003 or five, whatever like that, she's selling millions of records around the world.
You're going to make a nice amount of money. You get a cut on Delta, go drum record in 2010, even though it's very successful. She's maybe only selling a million or 500,000, which is nothing to sneeze at, but it's a very different thing than 5 million like you on, if you were on Celine Dion in, when I, when I started in 2000, Celine Dion was selling 10 million records by the time like 2008, 2009, she was selling to.
Or three and considered a massive success. It was just a different thing. And you know, people might think, well, 2 million records is amazing and absolutely. So let's say, you know, I had a song on ceiling down, let's say, well, if I had wrote it with you, let's say you and I wrote that song in 2000, we would've made about 50.
50 just to round up the math because I'm not a great math student. We would have made about 50,000 American dollars per million sold. So if that was 10 million, you and I would have made $500,000 from not even having a song on the radio. Now, eight years later for that same song on the same successful record that sold 2 million,
We would have made a hundred thousand.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: So to me, yes, a hundred thousand dollars is incredible to make as a songwriter. I'm no mathematician, but there's a really big difference between 500,000 and a hundred.
Yeah.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: So to me, that's where the industry was going. So now that's, and that's winning the world
cup or the cricket championship getting Celine Dion. I mean, now, now you take that and you get like a typical country artist, you know, an Australian country artist who you might've sold X amount of records. Now they're selling one 10th of the amount of records.
Now you're making. A thousand dollars from
Rae Leigh: yeah, yeah.
Jeff Cohen: It all changed. So to me, I will say this, I started out writing by myself and I found some artists. Like I worked with this guy Tai tour. I don't know if you know him. He was from the Faroe islands via, via Denmark. And absolutely brilliant. And we had some great records opened for John Mayer.
Rufus Wainwright, you know, had w was in, but we're in a bunch of movies. We actually had the wedding song for friends. And then at the last minute they switched it to Phil
Collins.
Rae Leigh: Uh, huh?
Jeff Cohen: And they called me and I'm like, what do you, what am I going to say? I mean, it's, it's Phil Collins, you know? I mean, it's like, yeah, I
Rae Leigh: Fair enough. Yeah,
Jeff Cohen: Too, I like, I think it would have been a edgy or bolder move to put our song than groovy kind of love, but. It's like there was one movie. I had a song in this movie called something's got to give with Jack Nicholson and Diane Keaton. And all of a sudden we had the paperwork and then they pulled the song.
And I said, really? And I had done desperate Housewives with this woman. I had done unconditional love with Jonathan Price and Kathy Bates. And then we had done another Stuart, little too. I did with her. She did all a lot of the PJ Hogan films.
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Jeff Cohen: But I said to her, I said, why did you pull that? The song was perfect.
She goes, go watch the movie. It's coming out in like three, four weeks. And this was that last minute. And then call me the day. So I go see the movie. It's this incredibly poignant scene, very sensitive. And the song comes on that she chose. And my two friends are with me or, you know, the girl she's crying, the guy is like, just completely focused on the scene and I just start laughing and everyone in the theater is like looking over at me.
Like, why is, why is this douchebag laughing? Like this is like a very important scene.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: And when we walked out of the movie, my friends go, why the hell are you laughing? I go,
I got beat by Paul Simon. She put only living boy in New York city. I'm like,
I feel, I feel so much better about not having a song in the movie right now.
I was, I was so pissed off. And then I'm like, if Paul Simon was going to give you permission to use only living boy in New York city in that scene.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. take it.
Jeff Cohen: I probably would have used that too.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. And that's okay. It is hot. I've had, I've heard that story with the creative vote all the time. It's like, sometimes it's just this, just something out there that you're actually quite happy for them to take it. You know, it's a compliment
almost.
Jeff Cohen: yeah. I mean, yeah, they could
have compensated me for my, uh, bumming out, but, but I got that, but like, for example, like I was up for that was asked to submit a song for the Subaru commercial because Sheryl Crow turned down their, the amount that they were offering and they were all pissed off.
So they offered it to us for half of what they were offering show Crow. And and I. And we were all good. And then they call back and they go show Crow reconsidered. And she accepted our original offer. And, you know, every day is a winding road, was the perfect song for a scar.
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Yeah, yeah. Right.
Jeff Cohen: Now the irony is that right now, the next two days, I'm going to be in the studio with the guy who wrote every day is a winding road and produces and writes, which show Crow. And when we started working together, I told him, I said, you, you owe me like a
few hundred thousand dollars. I'm like, yeah,
Rae Leigh: commercials.
Jeff Cohen: And, and, and the irony is he was like, oh, I remember that.
I remember we turned it down. I'm
like, fuck you. I don't want it.
Rae Leigh: you. should've
just stayed back down. Okay.
Jeff Cohen: you should have demanded more money
if he hits.
Rae Leigh: It's changing. Like, and I've even noticed in the creative world here, And even with Covid and everything, it's like, what was acceptable in what people would accept financially is changing again. And,
Jeff Cohen: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: you know, we live in such a.
Jeff Cohen: that for a while. I mean, the rates have come down where you've used to get 5,000 for something they'll give it to you for a thousand or sometimes, you know, I mean, cause because they know if you don't do it,
someone else
will.
Rae Leigh: exactly. And that's the thing. This is saturated to the point now that yeah, if you don't want to take the job with acting or modeling or, music, it's like, if you don't want the money, someone else will.
take the money, but then there is this also like a level of you get what you pay for. It's hard, but even when you're not just beginning out, obviously with your story, like you, sometimes you just gotta take the money
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I know like for pop patrol, like we took the upfront money for that was shit, but you know, there was some backend, but they, it was a buyout for public. I mean, Nickelodeon took all our pumps.
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Jeff Cohen: And it was like here's $15,000 for all of it. And if you don't want to do it, we'll give it to someone else and we'll let you keep your writer's share.
So we make some from the writer share, but I mean, we would've made over
double on that.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, absolutely. And they put through that, they knew that that's why they took it They
Jeff Cohen: Of course
Rae Leigh: gonna make lots of money from this. So we're going to take the money. That's,
Jeff Cohen: exactly right.
Rae Leigh: it's a given and take industry. And it's something that we all learn as we go and you just got to be in the right.
place at the right time and, you know,
Jeff Cohen: But there's certain times to do it. There's certain times not to do it. I
Rae Leigh: absolutely.
Jeff Cohen: I know for example, like there was a, for short little is a great example. I wrote a song with two Australians, with a girl named Leah. She was on Sony back in the day and her husband, Dan Pringle, both incredible, incredible talents, Pringles.
I mean, Leah, Leah and Dan are just, you know, they've gone on to do Selena Gomez and Miley Cyrus and
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Jeff Cohen: Victoria ju I mean, they've done every worked with all, all the Disney kids and stuff like that, but we got an offer, the music supervisors like, well, Michelle Branch wants to do your song. But she wants half the co-writing on it.
And we're like, well, we've never met her. Does she want to change some words? Does she not like it? And they're like, oh, we don't even know if she's heard it. This is her management saying, she'll only do it. If she's half writer on the song. And I'm like, so she gets 50%. And the three of us split 50%, but we wrote the song and I said, no, no, no,
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Jeff Cohen: And then I said, I said, does she want to write the song?
Does she want to then book a week with us and write other songs for her record? Why is this worth it for us? And they're like, well, we can't guarantee that you'll get any dates to write with her. And I'm like, okay, pass. No, thank you. And three weeks later, they called and said, there's an artist called Mandy Moore who loved the song and would love to do it.
And I'm like, what's the catch. They go, no, she's doing this.
Rae Leigh: wow.
Jeff Cohen: And we kept all the writer's share. We kept all the publishing and Mandy Moore. And not only put it on Stuart little too, it made her greatest hits
record.
Rae Leigh: Oh, amazing. That's awesome. Which, which my name,
whole song was that,
Jeff Cohen: top of the world.
Rae Leigh: uh, lovely. I loved her when I was in high school.
Jeff Cohen: she's amazing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Jeff Cohen: Another one, another one. Super nice. Was in the studio with her and you know, my friend Greg Wattenberg was producing the track and he invited us down.
I met her for maybe a few minutes, just stopped in, you know, you know, one of those, Hey, here's the writer of the song. Oh, hi. You know, could not have been nicer.
Rae Leigh: Yep. That's beautiful. And it's not. I think you have to be nice in this industry because it's too small of an industry and people will talk. Your reputation is everything. And
it's important to treat people with kindness, talking about Curt co-writes. Cause you've, you've obviously done a fair bit of co-writing.
I want to know what your best experience and advice is for co-writing. What do you do prepping for it or during the quarter.
Jeff Cohen: That's a really great question. Let's see. I mean, every situation is different.
Let me try to think. Well, I am trying to think when I started out, it was different. When I started out, I would, I would write with everyone. I mean, if, if you know, you know, you know, if like, I don't know if, if Gumby asked me to ride or like Thomas, the train asked me to write, I would have done it.
You
Rae Leigh: Hmm. Yeah. Okay.
Jeff Cohen: I'm like, oh, I'm completely booked, but I can do after dinner tonight, you know? And I just was happy anyone would work with me cause I never co-wrote. Now I'm kinda more in a situation where if I'm writing with someone who is not really had any success or, or I don't really know much about it.
Then we, the start from scratch or they can bring an idea. If I write with someone who is kind of in the same place I'm at, then I have something ready or we start from scratch where they can do something. If I get to write, for example, with like adult a good room, or if I write. You know, someone like that, I will always have an idea ready for her if she wants to come in with one of her ideas.
Fantastic. Cause then she's probably more attached to it. But with a lot of like, you know, if I get to ride with Keith urban, I'm going to have something ready. I mean, think about this. If you are being asked to speak in front of your company and give a speech,
you probably wouldn't just come in and wait.
Rae Leigh: no.
Jeff Cohen: So I like to have stuff in my pocket and ready to go. And then you just read the room in terms of co-writing there's some days where you're the lead and you're the driver, some days you're the passenger. Some days you're the person in the backseat who lets them talk the whole time and you just make sure that they don't get lost.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: So
Rae Leigh: You navigator.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. So it, it, it, it really, really depends. I always tell people to read the room when you're co-writing and, and, and I also honestly believe that everyone has their own superpowers. Like, for example, like what I do might not be what you do, but what you do might not be my strength. So my attitude is always bring your superpower into the right.
Don't try. To do what I do. If it's not what you do,
Rae Leigh: I like that.
Jeff Cohen: be yourself in the right. And the combination of both of our powers are going to create something incredibly strong. If you try to fake it and you try to do what I do really well, but it's not really your thing
then that's, I don't think that's the best move.
Rae Leigh: It'd be quite frustrating. I actually, I think I learnt that when I went to Nashville, I think it was 2019. And just being around people and learning that you don't have to do everything and that that's okay. Like you don't have to be a great lyricist and melody and ideas person and the producer and the musician and the artists.
Like I think, I think that was actually the idea that like I had to be able to do all of those things was the overwhelming belief that stopped me from really pursuing a career in music.
Jeff Cohen: Well, I mean, I mean, I'll say this it's a lot easier to get in the room as a co-writer. If you could do a track, I mean, I can't tell you how many co-writes I wasn't eligible for, because I sucked at logic and pro tools and they went with some kid who could give them a free demo.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: even at the expense of a worst song.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah, but it's, yeah, sometimes it's about the, uh, the cost effectiveness of it.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah.
Rae Leigh: but these days we can all learn how to do it. Like if I can learn how to use pro logic and like even use it to edit podcasts and basic demos, anyone can do it really. It's not hard. It takes a little bit of time and a little bit of research.
And then, you know, if just for basic demo stuff, like, I think it's essential now these days as well, for like, for me, I've done half of the songs I've recorded and released. I recorded all of my own vocals in my bedroom studio.
Jeff Cohen: Being able to do that is
invaluable.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And just to be like, someone reached out from Nashville, I think it was yesterday.
And they're like, I'd love you to do vocals for this demo, for this song. And I'm like, yeah, sweet. I can record my own vocals, send it back the rule files and someone else can mix netted it, but I can do that. Whereas if I couldn't do that and I had to find it, someone who could record my vehicles here, then it's costing me money.
And it, all of a sudden it's not going to work.
Jeff Cohen: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've gotten okay at like recording guitar and vocals and stuff, but I mean, like I, an engineer at this point, because there's so much stuff and he's so much better than I am in so much quicker, but like during COVID, if I had to, I
could.
Rae Leigh: Yeah, no, that's really good. And I think that's really good advice.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, but I mean, I, usually I tell everybody out there, if you can learn how to do logic and pro tools, even on the basic level of just getting a good vocal and a good guitar or a good piano, it will increase your value in, in rights is not a substitute for being able to write an amazing lyric and an amazing melody.
But. On the other hand, it kind of is because if you can make a track, then they'll pair you with people who can do vocals and, and melody and stuff like
that. It, it can't hurt you to know
how to do
it.
Rae Leigh: No, and that's really good advice. That's really good advice. Speaking of advice, what is the best and the worst advice you've ever received in this industry
Jeff Cohen: Let's see best. The worst advice I was ever given was to put all my money on Shalong in the final one year. And then it just really, that did not work out for me.
Rae Leigh: Jalong?
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. They just, they said, put it all on Jalong. They're going to win the finals and they did
not. So, yeah, so that was not
Rae Leigh: advice.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I'm not talking to Neil
Finn anymore. After
that, but you know, okay.
Rae Leigh: don't don't know, where he's put all your eggs in one basket.
Jeff Cohen: right. Don't always put you in one basket. Especially if it's a Jalong basket. But let's see what
what was some of the, what was the, question again? Best
Rae Leigh: But best and worst advice. Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: Okay. Let's. Well, one of the worst advices I ever got was when I was about 18 years ago, when I bought all the equipment for logic and pro tools, I started learning how to do it.
Uh, two of the writers, artists had lunch with me and they're like, you shouldn't do that. You're so fast with your melodies and your lyrics, and you have so much going on. Hire some hire someone to do it for you. There's kids that are so much better. You're never going to be that good at it. Don't learn how to do it.
Then. Just like your role is more pure songwriting. That was the stupidest asked advice I ever got them. That
Rae Leigh: And did you ignore them obviously?
Jeff Cohen: no, I
Rae Leigh: you listened to it?
Jeff Cohen: no, I hired an engineer and it wasn't until the last few years I started to learn how to
do lot.
Rae Leigh: ah,
Jeff Cohen: It was really, really stupid because I knew I should do it back then.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yep.
Jeff Cohen: And there's been a lot of bad advice over the years. The other, the other, the, the, the other bad advice was when I had the theme for Jack and Jill and we were selling, we were the most. The highest selling CD on CD baby.com. At the time everyone was like, oh, come on Jeff. You're 30, 30, 4, 35. You just quit your job.
You're not an artist. You should be a songwriter. You shouldn't be playing shows and you shouldn't tell people you're an artist, you know? No one's going to take you seriously. If you do that bullshit. I mean, you think people wouldn't write with me right now. If I had gone
and opened up for matchbox 20.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I think that sounds like a lot of their in projections just projecting
Jeff Cohen: because they couldn't, they couldn't see me as, as a, as an artist because they saw me as the suit who signed all
those people, which sucked. But but yeah. So that was really terrible advice.
Rae Leigh: What about some good advice? Best advice.
Jeff Cohen: best advice someone told me when I was starting. That it's all about being in the right place at the right time with the right thing. And I said, what does that mean? He goes, well, think about it. If you know where to go and you do your research and you know, the right places to go, you have a better chance of being in the right place.
If you go all the time and you're constantly there and you're constantly working, you've a better chance of being there at the right time.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: then he said, if you don't have the right thing, then why the hell are you doing.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. What's the right thing. Just Being prepared.
Jeff Cohen: Being good,
Rae Leigh: Been good. Yeah.
I
Jeff Cohen: but sometimes, sometimes it's almost better to be lucky, but, but, but I, but I do think that if you have the skillset, I think what he meant is if you have the skillset that it's not just about having the skillset, it's about being in the right place at the right
time and being ready.
Rae Leigh: That's right. And I think that's important. And like, just literally this weekend, I was going to an autistic showcase and I was only meant to be doing 10 minutes as like a side thing to all these other big bands, I was just doing a Christic solo 10 minute thing in between. And one of the, the, the headline act didn't rock up.
It was a couple of rappers, local Brisbane guy. They didn't come. And so I went from doing 10 minutes to doing the headline hour at the end of the show, but I have, I have three hours of content and I I'm ready to play that at any time. And that takes daily practice. And if I had only prepared 10 minutes, then that I wouldn't have been able to do that.
Do you know what I mean?
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. I mean, like at this point in our careers, I mean, you know, if I'm up, if I'm up there, I mean, I remember doing COVID. Uh, one of my neighbors, wonderful woman had two of her friends visit to get there. She set them up to get shots here cause they couldn't get shots where they live. So they went to get the vaccine, they came to Nashville and they, for whatever reason, they, they knew a lot of my songs and.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: So she's like, would you come down to the courtyard? Would you play some songs for my friends? These are my best friends that I have for years. And I'm like, sure. So I came down and ended up, I was, I thought I was going to do two or three songs for them. I ended up playing for two
hours. And at this point, you know, my attitude is we have so many songs we've written.
I can play all of them.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Right. And that's not a nice feeling to get to that point where you're like, hang on a second. I could probably play until people start telling me to shut up and go home.
Jeff Cohen: I played a show in Spain, one time with my friend,
James, and we didn't start till midnight. Gnosis
Rae Leigh: Wow.
Jeff Cohen: but at about, at about two 30 in the morning, I looked at James and I said, God, you know, we really need to wrap this up. And he goes, come on, man. They're loving us. I get, well, five of them are sleeping.
And I'm like, and he, and he looked at me and he goes, yeah, but those 10 over there. So into it, I'm like, dude, it's two 30. I really want to go to museums tomorrow. I'm going to see the city of Madrid. I've never been here. I don't want to play on five in the morning. Come on,
man.
Rae Leigh: But still it is beautiful and it is hard when you've got a group of people really into it. It's hard to want to stop, but you got to call it at some point.
Jeff Cohen: Yes. Yes. It's like, you don't have to stay here. You don't have to
go home, but you can't stay here.
Rae Leigh: speaking of which, if you could co-write with anyone in the world, dead or alive, who would it be and why?
Jeff Cohen: Ooh,
you mean
besides you?
Right?
Rae Leigh: I mean,
that's I'm still at that. All Right?
With any one stage.
Jeff Cohen: Okay. Let me think. And it's funny, cause I'm not really doing a lot of co-writing these days. I'm mostly working on my own projects and with a few artists who would I want to work with? Wow. I mean, Jackson brown and Peter Gabriel, and my two heroes in terms of that. And I've been very fortunate to meet Jackson brown, a num a number of times.
But I've never, I never wanted to cross that line and ask him to ride. I probably could have at a certain point I'd in fact I definitely could have, and I just
didn't
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: and, and I don't even necessarily regret that.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: I just, I don't know someone current or someone, I mean, obviously I'd love to write a Paul McCartney,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Okay.
Jeff Cohen: you know what I mean?
Come on.
Rae Leigh: And who wouldn't,
Jeff Cohen: Right.
Rae Leigh: he's Come up a few times.
Jeff Cohen: yeah, but, but no, I mean, there's, there's so many people I'd love to work with. I just,
if I do, I do, if I don't, I
don't
Rae Leigh: Do you know, I'd like to ask Paul McCartney that question. Who would he like to write with dead or alive?
Jeff Cohen: Well, he was asked that question
a few times and at one time he, he did answer Jeff Cohen one time. And, and I, you know, and I was, I, you know, I wasn't completely shocked, but I just was like, you know, dude, I told you I'll make this happen. You know, I had my
people tell his people that, of course,
but
Rae Leigh: Okay.
Jeff Cohen: just, it is listen one day, if you wants to I'll I, you know, I'm, I'm in England all the time.
Know I
could make, he doesn't have to come to now.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I mean, these days you can do it. I don't know if he knows how to use the online stuff, but I'm sure someone could set it up.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, I'm sure he's got people who can do that. And, and, and honestly, he, he was one of the first people to use those four tracks and those eight tracks. And
Rae Leigh: Yeah,
Jeff Cohen: anything, he can't, I'm sure if he wants to create a vaccine, he could have set his mind to it. And McCartney would have been like,
just, just give me a week, I'll come
up with the vaccine,
Rae Leigh: Yeah. Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: what I mean? Yeah.
Rae Leigh: And we don't believe him because as soon as like, it's just the name we like, we believe in you because Yeah.
You got to have belief in yourself, don't you?
Jeff Cohen: Yeah. Paul McCartney came up with a covered
vaccine. I'd be like it's Paul McCartney. Take it.
Rae Leigh: mm. mm. No, I love it. Okay. All right. So tell me, you've got some music that's just come out and you got, what, what have you got coming on this year and what should we we'll be looking at?
Jeff Cohen: Well, we had a song this week on new music, Friday on Spotify. Is by an artist art at all, like, okay. You know, I'm tired when my Brooklyn accent comes out, I need a nap. I was up, it's also super hot here. Uh, there's an artist called Jake bug and there's a song called downtown and wrote that with Jamie Hartman, who is to my I'll go on record as saying he is either the best or one of the best songwriters I've ever worked with in my life.
And, uh, Jacob. Yeah, Jamie and I started and Jamie took it to Jake and he helped us finish it. And so it's a three-way co-write and Jake bug is, I've always been such a massive fan of his, he's just an incredible talent.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: you know, to hear him sing the song that I was even a small part of, you know, this
just wonderful.
Rae Leigh: It's a beautiful feeling. Isn't it? When it all works out, I know there's so many times it doesn't work out like, you know, almost on
Jeff Cohen: times, most times it doesn't work out
Rae Leigh: Yeah. So what it does
is it feels good.
Jeff Cohen: So that's out right now, currently. So, uh, you know, get it on Spotify, do it, and I'll make a fraction of a penny
from it. And yeah, yes. I can maybe buy a sandwich tomorrow. If you get to a mill, if you get to a million streams maybe, maybe I don't
think I could even get a sandwich for that, but and then
Rae Leigh: streams is
like $3,000. Is that
Jeff Cohen: not for them, not enough for the songwriter, for the artists.
Rae Leigh: No. Yes. Okay. You know, you're
Jeff Cohen: for the song writer. It's about $3,
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: I think are less.
Rae Leigh: it down.
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, it's less. Let's see. Is abandoned England called the Shire? And they are currently going into the studio in September and they're recording two songs that we wrote. I've been very fortunate to have three, a list hits in England with them before.
And I'm very excited about these two new songs. I really just have a great feeling about them.
Rae Leigh: Yeah.
Jeff Cohen: So I feel good about that. Let's see what else. Yeah. And then I'm finishing this new project, uh, with this girl, Jen Bostik, we, we formed a duo and we're going to be called secret world and Jeff Trott, who did all the show CRO is producing it with me.
And that should be out hopefully
in the fall.
Rae Leigh: wow. So you've got a fair bit going on this year.
Jeff Cohen: There's a lot going on and I just did a theme song for ESPN, for TV. And then we still have the pop patrol, which is still pop patrol movie coming out this
summer.
Rae Leigh: Whew. And I mean, like, I think it's insane that you just, yeah. That's what you're doing. And you still able to travel a little bit and it's not really inhibiting you too much
Jeff Cohen: Oh, no, no, I
Rae Leigh: world locked down.
Jeff Cohen: I've only traveled for work. Uh, since March, since February 20, 20, I only did it once. I, I mean, I don't want to get into it, but I had to go to New York six times because of my dad was sick, but I, I went to New York, uh, to visit my mom in June and. Combine that with a I'm working.
Uh, I also got lucky this fall. Uh, we have a one-woman show coming out in New York if we're allowed to off Broadway. So I was working with my partner on that in New York. And I've got to go back up there in August. That's why I'm going to New York in three weeks. Cause we're gonna work on that show and it's my mom's birthday.
So I kind of timed it to be there at the same time. And then. And then, and then full circle. I'm taking my mom for her birthday to go see Jackson brown and James
Taylor.
Rae Leigh: Oh, nice.
Jeff Cohen: So that'd be really sweet outside, beautiful amphitheater on the ocean. It's going to be beautiful. And then Los Angeles next week is to pitch the new album secret world for for TV and film sink.
And, and to get out there because it's a good time, July and August is a great time to pitch, uh, for TV and sink because they're getting their fall seasons together is also a great time to pitch Christmas songs.
Rae Leigh: Right. Good tips for everyone listening.
Jeff Cohen: Yes,
Rae Leigh: All right. Brilliant. Well, is there anything else you would like to share with the audience about
Jeff Cohen: Yeah, well, I mean, we need CTC or whatever to invite me over, to play in Australia. Next time they do the big festivals over there. And maybe if you have CMC after this, uh, after this record is out, I might have to do a
tour of Australia.
Rae Leigh: look, I'm totally planning on having a songwriters festival, just all about songwriting and I'd love to have you.
That would be so much fun. Yeah. I mean, you know. just getting enough people on board and get the planning happening, but it's on the way
Jeff Cohen: That would be fantastic, but, uh, thank you. Thank you for having me. And, is there anything else that you want me to say to anyone? Or are we good? It's almost dinner time here. I know it's breakfast time for you.
Rae Leigh: Look, we've already spoken for an hour and you've been amazing. And I know how tired you are. So I just want to say thank you so much for sharing everything that you've been through and your experience and wisdom, like it's so inspiring to hear someone who's so passionate about music, like at the start every night, going out and working your butt off and just loving music.
And it feels like you're still kind of doing that. And it's like, that's what life should be about is just living the life,
Jeff Cohen: I still do it probably every night. Last night. I mean last night at midnight, I was sitting at my desk and coming up with song ideas for my session today. And almost every single night before I go to sleep, I pick up my guitar. I make sure the recorder is on and I just try to come up with some ideas and I just catalog them and have them ready to go either to myself or to bring into artists.
I'm always creating my attitude is what's next. And I simultaneously believe, you know, why not you, but at the same time, don't just wish for it.
You've got to work for it.
Rae Leigh: Yeah. I love that. I really, I really like All of that there's ideas and fills me with a lot of joy. And with that, I'm about to head to the studio myself. So,
Jeff Cohen: All right.
Rae Leigh: my day is just starting and it starts with you and that was a beautiful wake-up call. So thank you very much.
Jeff Cohen: Okay. Well, it was, it was wonderful to chat with you and let's stay in touch.
Rae Leigh: Yes, please do. I will definitely stay in touch. Thanks Jeff.
Jeff Cohen: You gotta take care of everyone. Okay. Bye.
Rae Leigh: Bye.
